Lance Bombardier & Bombardier in the RA

[nigelfe]

So KR---->AO----->ACI?

Apart from KR, is there any point where things are subject to negotiation? I assume this is ACI? Where is the cutoff for things to get onto part 1/part 2 orders?

Anything I can read to get a good background in this? Sorry for questions but this has aroused(ohhh matron) my intrest.

IIRC FSR (Vol 2?)(sorry Field Service Regulations, the primary doctrinal publication) (Vol 2?) has something to say on the matter.

However, the Field Service Pocketbook 1914 eplains Standing Orders, Routine Orders and Operation Orders.

Matron will deal with you shortly.

[ianjonesncl]

From Fleabay

16143 A. BMBR. A.G. GRAYSMARK R.A.

[kevinrowlinson]

Having now received quite a few more ACIs I thought an update may be in order ....for those that may still be interested.

Looking at previous posts on forum it seems to me that there is some confusion with some members about exactly what was an Acting Bombardier for a period before ACI 1743 of 30 November 1917. I think it is better to start there:

Paid or Unpaid Acting Bombardier was a Lance appointment. The acting rank was known as Acting Full Bombardier. Why they never used Lance straight away I have no idea, but obviously with the release of ACI 1701 of 2 Sept 1916 (1701. Disposal of Warrant Officers and N.C.Os. (Regular and T.F.) in excess of establishments at home.) ordering that only acting rank only could be given at home this gave rise to the lance appointment becoming Acting Acting Bombardier paid or unpaid and written in records by various methods.

ACI 1701 paragraph 7

7. In future all promotion within the establishment of units serving at home will be acting rank only, except in a corps in which promotion is given on a general roster in which case promotion will continue to be governed by the existing rules for promotion within these corps.

Therefore before 1743 there was;

Gunner..... rank

Paid or Unpaid Acting Bombardier.... lance appointment... one stripe

Acting Full Bombardier..... appointment.... one stripe

Bombardier..... rank.... one stripe

After ACI 1743 the lance appointment became obvious and I can quite believe that this change was not only welcomed but may have been requested by the RA. I think its use would have been almost immediate at home and "in the field", especially for newly appointed gunners. I personally do not think it was necessary for any more paper work, no returns would have been needed. Why should it? It was just a name change and gunners records could be updated as and when they would be in the normal course of events; return or change of batteries etc., as has already been illustrated.

Fortunately because of the other ACIs I am now happy that Lance- Bombardier introduced by ACI 1743 was not cancelled until ACI 699 of 1924. As before I still need to obtain a few other AOs and ACIs. One always seems to lead to another.

Kevin

[SFayers]

Thanks for the update Kevin.

[kevinrowlinson]

Having had the intention to return to this thread when time allowed, I will post a number of ACIs and AOs that deals with the appointment/promotion in the RA. Hopefully some existing members may find them interesting. I will post them by year. If any are unreadable them pm me and I will forward a higher res. version.

Kevin

ACI 1701 of 1916

[kevinrowlinson]

ACI 2105 of 1916, and AO 99 of 1916

[kevinrowlinson]

ACIs 124 and 337 of 1917

[kevinrowlinson]

ACIs 355 and 356 of 1917

[kevinrowlinson]

ACIs 410 and 1592 of 1917

ACI 1662 of 1917

ACI 1662 of 1917 cont.

ACI 1662 of 1917 cont.

[kevinrowlinson]

ACI 541 of 1918

[kevinrowlinson]

ACI 541 of 1918 cont. and AO 115 of 1918




The following ACI 386 of 1919 clears up my mistake in post 11 regarding the "Promotion" and therefore rank of L/Bdr. It was clearly intended to be read as T/Bdr.



For those that have never seen it, although sometimes discussed, the following is AO 142 of 1920.

[SFayers]

Those make very interesting reading Kevin - thanks very much for posting!

All the best

Steve

[Muerrisch]

Kevrow: An exceptionally useful series of postings, which I know from experience require a lot of fiddling around.

Very many thanks for sharing these gems of information.

[Graham Stewart]

WOI 194 of the 22nd August 1914 deals with 'Acting' ranks.

[Muerrisch]

This forum, through the good offices primarily of Kevrow, has made a little bit of history regarding the Lance-bombardier appointment. As Michael Caine might have said "not a lot of people knew that!".

I have asked to Kevrow to put a tick in the box for the summary below, duly ticked!

SUMMARY SO FAR:

Unlike the Royal Navy, the Army had for very many years [since before 1800] used APPOINTMENT to lance-rank as a means of trying out a soldier in a position of greater responsibility without necessarily paying him for that responsibility, and without need for much formality if the time came to revert him.

The complication in the case of the RA [with a parallel complication in the RE] was that they had, until Army Order 142 of 1920, an extra RANK, above the basic grade and below corporal, that of bombardier [and RE 2nd corporal].

Before the Great War there were in the Army as a whole : lance-sergeants [substantive corporals], lance-corporals [substantive privates], acting bombardiers, and acting second-corporals RE. Note that the RA and RE used 'acting' to mean exactly what was meant by lance.

ACI 1743 of 30 Nov 1917 addressed the problem that the use of 'acting' had been usurped by previous ACI for use solely at Home. It said, in effect, in the RA, 'for acting bombardier, read lance-bombardier', thus bringing the RA to converge with the infantry etc except in so far that the extra rank [and appointment] step below corporal was retained until 1920. Complications still arose in the case of soldiers proceeding to and from Home, and between units, the subject of several more ACI during the war.

[Ruth Ward]

Hello

I for one find this thread very interesting (although am struggling to understand it all), as it has some bearing on my g/f - L/Bdr 123257 Bernard Bromley (no service records). (His MIC and the 94th Brigade WD record him as L/Bdr as of 15 June 1918. However, the photo of him with his batery (293 SB, RGA) in Nov 1918 shows him wearing a single chevron on his sleeve, which (via other threads/posts on the GWF denotes 'Bombardier'. This seems to confirm him being promoted to that rank after his award of MM in June 1918 - a letter informing his wife of the MM refers to him as "Bombardier". Given the info on this thread, is this still likely to be the case, or could a single chevron denote L/Bdr & Bdr in Nov 1918?

Ruth

[kevinrowlinson]

Ruth,

Unfortunately without his service records you will never know his substantive rank. After Nov. 1917 one had;

Gunner Rank

Paid or Unpaid Lance-Bombardier Appointment one stripe

Acting Bombardier Appointment one stripe

Bombardier Rank one stripe

I do not want to demote him but the chances are, from experience, he was Acting Bombardier. It seemed fairly common on some forms to drop the Acting. Either way he would have worn one stripe. As you can see he would have been appointed Acting Bombardier before full Bombardier. It may have totally depended on the establishment of the battery. A few Bombardiers would have had to have moved on for him to be made up.

Kevin

Thanks to Paul

[kevinrowlinson]

Ruth,

Apologies I actually missed one out, which was the reason for the name change, and that is Acting Lance-Bombardier. Still an appointment and with one stripe. It may be easier to understand if you see how it was at the start of the war,

The ranks are on the left, and the appointments which could be given to that rank are on the right. You will see at the top of the Gunners appointments A/Bdr. This is different to the possible appointment of A/Bdr (rank), such as could be given to A/Cpl or A/Sgt, and which was later confused when they instructed that only acting appointments and ranks could be given at home. Obviously this led to A/A/Bdr. The A/Bdr (rank) was not affected because by it's nature it didn't need to be changed. If you substitute A/Bdr, on the top of the right list, with L/Bdr it may become clearer. Anyway all had one stripe up to and including Bombardier after Gunner. Hope this is clearer. I blame the person who first named the appointment A/Bdr in the first place, and not L/Bdr, like Lance-Corporal.

Kevin

[Ruth Ward]

Kevin

Many, many thanks for the information. I think, though, I will have to read the thread through a few more times (no reflection on your, or anyone else's posts). I think you deserve a medal for grappling with all this .

Ruth

[kevinrowlinson]

Ruth,

A lot of this is really of academic interest. At the time if a man was wearing one stripe he was, to all intents and purposes, a Bombardier. Basically it was really a matter of how easily he could he be "hired and fired" from his job and by whom. I have a photo of my grandfather wearing two stripes so one would have to say he was a Corporal. Fortunately his service records survived and his substantive rank was still Gunner. At the time he was an Assistant Instructor of Signalling so any Gunners or Bombardiers under him would have had to listen to him. Personally I think it was very important during the war that there were so many of these lower appointments in the RA.

Kevin