Cdn Tramways and Engine Crew Co. Insignia?

[guayx001]

Does anyone know which cap and collar badges the 1st and 2nd Tramways Co. (Canadians) and the 85th Engine Crew Co. (Canadians) wore. Since they were not Canadian Railway Troops and served with the Brits, I've never been able to find out this info.Thanks for any help that you can provide!

[scottmarchand]

Hi Dave,

Good question, tough one too - which is why you have had no reply. I dont know either but I'll bug one of my pals who writes badge books etc. I would suspect that they may have just worn Engineers insignia if attached to the brits - but Canadians loved their badges, so who knows.

[guayx001]

Hi Dave,

Good question, tough one too - which is why you have had no reply. I dont know either but I'll bug one of my pals who writes badge books etc. I would suspect that they may have just worn Engineers insignia if attached to the brits - but Canadians loved their badges, so who knows.

Hi, ScottM: Thanks for looking into this for me! I think that the Engine Crew Co. wore the SRE (Skilled Railway Employees) no. 4 badges, at least per Charlton's last badge guide (1995) but there was NO illustration of the badge in the guide, meaning that it is RARE as hensteeth or maybe does not exist. Still leaves the 1st and 2nd Tramways Companies (Canadian) question though. I want to address this as I have written a history of the Canadian Railway Troops which is to be published (text done, working on photos now) in next year or so. Thanks for looking!!! Dave CRT

[ARABIS]

Dave,

Is this any help?

Drawing no., 23-4 Skilled Railway Employees 4th, from "Canadian Expeditionary Forces Cap Badges 1914-1918" by L. L. Babin.

David.

[scottmarchand]

Here is what Chris Brooker supplied me from his unpublished draft on CEF cap badges, prices are est. for the year 2000:

THE CANADIAN ENGINEERS IN WWI

Over 1000 sappers from a variety of Field Companies and Field Troops arrived at Camp Valcartier in August 1914 having volunteered for service in the CEF, this in addition to the RCE Engineers who were providing their services in the actual building of the camp. 28 Officers and 855 OR’s were selected to sail with the first contingent in October 1914. By April 8th 1915 the establishment of the Canadian Engineers was 1st Canadian Divisional Engineers 39 Officers and 1358 OR’s, Signals eight officers and 192 OR’s, with 50 reinforcements. The establishment of the 2nd Canadian Divisional Engineers being set at 21 Officers and 1356 OR’s, Signals six Officers and 220 other ranks. The Canadian Engineer Training Depot four Officers and 120 OR’s (England) Telegraph operators 80, Home Establishments 19 Officers and 283 OR’s (this included three RCE Companies) and the Overseas Railway Construction Corps. An Engineer Training Depot authorized at Ottawa on the 20th April 1915 and established May 15th 1915 to train and forward reinforcements and to serve as the base for the formation of additional units as needed. The Depot was moved to Valcartier in June and to St.John’s (St.Jean) in Quebec in October where it remained for the duration of WWI.

There are a large number of different varieties within the badges of the Canadian Engineers. The first Canadian issues were struck in natural gilding metal. Badges were produced in Canada by Caron Bros., Birks, Hemsley, Roden Bros., and O.B.Allen and in England by J.R.Gaunt, Joseph Jennens, and Tiptaft in England with others by as yet unidentified makers. Some ‘odd’ varieties of cap badges were also produced notably a pattern with a garter belt with buckle as on the RCE badges and not the approved for the CE. The shoulder strap titles are often maker marked and dated which does give a guide as to when new orders for badges were being produced. The listings below are arbitrary but take into account when units were raised in specific geographical areas. Example In March 1916 authority was granted to raise a Depot Tunneling Company at Naniamo on Vancouver Island. The offer to send a fourth tunneling company to England saw this converted to the 4th Tunneling Company and the badges produced by OB Allen (Vancouver) were possibly produced for this unit, hence an arbitrary date of 1916 for the OB Allen marked badges, of course a number of other engineering companies were formed in British Columbia. The detail on the earliest badges is extremely fine but by the end of the war mass produced pattern badge had extremely poor detail, most of the OR’s without matching collar badges being produced after the change to the grenade pattern collar badges circa 1917.

Though the Canadian Engineers CEF wore generic Canadian Engineers cap and collar badges distinguishing cloth formation patches were worn. The first Canadian Engineer patches were authorized in a directive issued from Headquarters in London dated December 10th 1916 stating ‘Canadian Engineers, Dismounted Services. Distinguishing Badges: All NCO’s (Except Sgt. Bugler or Sgt. Trumpeter) above the rank of Corporal wear a Grenade on Service Jacket and Great Coats. Cap, collar and shoulder badges as issued. The letters C.E. will be worn 1 inch below top of shoulder, coloured (red with blue letters). In 1918 specific trades and formations designation patches were also introduced.

70-9-4-91 Formation patch. Blue letters woven through red melton cloth 50.00

By 1918 these patches were worn sewn over the Divisional patches by the Engineer Battalions of the various Divisional Engineers.

70-9-4-91 Formation patch. Blue letters woven through red melton cloth over red 1st Division formation patch. 250.00

70-9-4-91 Formation patch. Blue letters woven through red melton cloth over blue 2nd Division formation patch. 250.00

70-9-4-91 Formation patch. Blue letters woven through red melton cloth over French Grey 3rd Division formation patch. 250.00

70-9-4-91 Formation patch. Blue letters woven through red melton cloth over Green 4th Division formation patch. 250.00

ARMY TROOPS CANADIAN ENGINEERS

The Army Troops Canadian Engineers included the Army Troops Company CE, the 1st and 2nd Tramway Companies CE and the Anti-Aircraft Searchlight Company.

70-9-4-91 The Army Troops formation patch was a woven ‘broken’ blue bar with ‘CE’ on a red rectangle 250.00

1st TUNNELING COMPANY CANADIAN ENGINEERS

The 1st Tunneling Company was formed at Pembroke, Ontario on September 21st 1915 with miners from Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. This being authorized under General Order 151 of December 22nd 1915. The 1st Tunneling Company sailed for England January 1st 1916.and from there on to France on February 15th 1916. The 1st Tunneling Company was disbanded July 11th 1918 and its personnel distributed to the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and, and 9th Battalions Canadian Engineers. The 1st Overseas Tunneling Company was disbanded under General Order 192 of 1920.

70-9-4-91 Formation patch. Blue letter ‘T’ woven through red melton cloth 450.00

2nd TUNNELING COMPANY CANADIAN ENGINEERS

The 2nd Tunneling Company was formed at Calgary with miners from Alberta and British Columbia in September 1915. This authorized under General Order 151 of December 22nd 1915. The 2nd Tunneling Company sailed for England January 30th 1916.and from there on to France on March 10th 1916. On July 7th 1918 the 2nd Tunneling Company was disbanded and the personnel distributed to the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 10th, 11th and 12th Battalions, Canadian Engineers. The 2nd Overseas Tunneling Company was disbanded under General Order 192 of 1920.

70-9-4-91 2nd and 3rd Overseas Tunneling Companies formation patch was a red letter ‘T’

100.00

3rd TUNNELING COMPANY CANADIAN ENGINEERS

The 3rd Tunneling Company was an ad hoc Company formed in France on January 16th 1916 (Both 3rd and 4th Tunneling Companies were authorized under General Order 11 of February 2nd 1917.) Like the 1st and 2nd Tunneling Companies the 3rd was supposed to be broken up but remained serving under the British Second Army for the duration of the War. The 3rd Overseas Tunneling Company was disbanded under General Order 192 of 1920.

70-9-4-91 2nd and 3rd Overseas Tunneling Companies formation patch was a red letter ‘T’

100.00

4th TUNNELING COMPANY CANADIAN ENGINEERS

In Canada authority was granted to form an Overseas Tunneling Company at Naniamo on Vancouver Island March 16th 1916 this arrived in England on August 19th 1916, authorized under General Order 11 of February 2nd 1917, with a full slate of eight officers but only 156 of the 288 authorized other ranks. The 4th Tunneling Company was broken up to provide reinforcements to the three Tunneling Companies already serving in France. The 4th Overseas Tunneling Company was disbanded under General Order 192 of 1920.

THE CORPS OF CANADIAN RAILWAY TROOPS

The Corps of Canadian Railway Troops was formed in France on April 23rd 1918 bringing all 13 CRT Battalion, and the formerly independent Canadian Overseas Railway Construction Corps,, the 58th Broad Gage Operating Company, the 13th Light Operating Company, the 85th Engine Crew Company and the 69th Wagon Erecting Company under its administrative control..

Many of the Canadian Railway Troops had to abandon their equipment during the initial stages of the last great German offensive and the personnel of the 5th and 11th CRT were formed into an ad hoc Canadian Railway Brigade to help hold part of the front for the British 1st Division they were bolstered by the addition of the 7th CRT a few days later.

THE SKILLED RAILWAY EMPLOYEES

On July 27th 1916 the British Government asked if Canada could supply railway specialists in addition to the railway construction battalions either serving in France or being formed. Three sections of skilled railway employees were raised and later a fourth was formed from skilled personnel in France. These were raised as operating and engineering companies and not construction units, originally serving under the British Royal Engineers.

No.1 SECTION SKILLED RAILWAY EMPLOYEES

No.1 Section Skilled Railway Employees was authorized under General Order 11 of February 1917 having been raised in Montreal on December 1st 1916. The unit arrived in England March 15th 1917 where it was renamed 12th (Canadian) Light Railway Operating Company R.E. The unit, consisting of three officers and 264 OR’s, disliked the term Light Railway and at their own request were redesignated as the 58th Broad Gage Operating Company R.E. on April 17th 1917. The 58th Broad Gage Operating Company arrived in France on April 22nd 1917 serving until March 1919. The unit and its reinforcing draft, authorized in June 1917 were both disbanded under General Order 196, 1st November 1920.

65-11-1-2 Cap OR’s Darkened gilding metal by Birks but not maker marked 400.00

65-11-1-41 Collar OR’s Darkened gilding metal by Birks but not maker marked 150.00

65-11-1-91 Title Natural gilding metal ‘SRE’ over CANADA’ maker not identified small size 125.00

65-11-1-21 Cap Officers Bronzed with silver overlay by Birks (No recent sales recorded) Est. 3500.00

65-11-1-61 Collar Officers Bronzed with silver overlay by Birks (No recent sales recorded) Est. 500.00

65-11-1-99 Formation patch 58th Broad Gage Operating Co. blue triangle over red triangle * 250.00

No.2 SECTION SKILLED RAILWAY EMPLOYEES

No.2 Section Skilled Railway Employees was authorized under General Order 63 of June 15th 1917 having been raised in Montreal on January 27th 1917. The unit consisting of three officers and 264 OR’s arrived in England at the end of April 1917 where it was renamed 13th Light Railway Operating Company R.E. (No.2 Section Skilled Railway Employees CEF). In September 1917 the designation became the 13th Light Railway Operating Company (No.2 Section Skilled Railway Employees CEF) and in November 1917 the 13th Light Railway Operating Company (Canadians) and finally in March 1918 as the 13th Canadian Light Railway Operating Company . The unit arrived in France in June 1917 serving until March 1919. The 13th Canadian Light Railway Operating Company was disbanded under General Order 196, 1st November 1920 along with the rest of the Canadian Railway Troops CEF.

65-11-2-2 Cap OR’s Darkened gilding metal by Birks but not maker marked 400.00

65-11-2-41 Collar OR’s Darkened gilding metal by Birks but not maker marked 150.00

65-11-2-91 Title Natural gilding metal ‘SRE’ over CANADA’ maker not identified large size 125.00

65-11-2-21 Cap Officers Sterling silver by Birks (No recent sales recorded) Est. 3500.00

65-11-2-61 Collar Officers Sterling silver by Birks (No recent sales recorded) Est. 500.00

Reinforcements

65-11-2-4 Cap OR’s Browning gilding metal by J.R.Gaunt but not maker marked 400.00

65-11-2-43 Collar OR’s Darkened gilding metal by J.R.Gaunt but not maker marked 150.00

65-11-1-23 Cap Officers Bronzed with silver overlay by J.R.Gaunt (No recent sales recorded) Est. 1500.00

65-11-1-63 Collar Officers Bronzed with silver overlay by J.R.Gaunt (No recent sales recorded) Est. 250.00

No.3 SECTION SKILLED RAILWAY EMPLOYEES

No.3 Section Skilled Railway Employees was formed at St.John’s (St. Jean) Quebec with mainly railway men from Moncton. (No authorizing General Order is listed) The unit arrived in England on March 14th 1918 where on the 16th was designated the 69th Canadian Wagon Erecting Company. It arrived in France April 15th 1918 the last Canadian railway troop unit to do so and was the first of the formerly independent units to leave France in February 1919. No official date of disbandment is listed in the General Orders possibly as the unit was considered part of the British Royal Engineers.

65-11-3-2 Cap OR’s Blackened gilding metal by J.R.Gaunt but not maker marked 750.00

65-11-3-41 Collar OR’s Blackened gilding metal by J.R.Gaunt but not maker marked 200.00

65-11-3-21 Cap Officers Bronzed by J.R.Gaunt (No recent sales recorded) Est. 1500.00

65-11-3-61 Collar Officers Bronzed by J.R.Gaunt (No recent sales recorded) Est. 250.00

An exceptionally rare and previously unlisted officers bi-metal collar badge to the No.3 Section Skilled Railway Employees (Babin E.23-3, Charlton 65-11-3-61) White metal overlay riveted to flat backed brass badge this maker marked ‘J.R. Gaunt London’. est $1000

No.4 SECTION SKILLED RAILWAY EMPLOYEES

No.4 Section Skilled Railway Employees was formed at Purfleet on September 7th 1917 as the 85th Canadian Engine Crew Company it was formed for service in France. The unit provided 108 train crews, (approximately 300 all ranks) and sailed for France December 12th 1917. Like the 3rd SRE this unit is not listed in the General Orders. The unit returned to England March 27th 1919 with the exception of two crews.

No public sales of badges to this unit have been recorded and it is likely that if produced were patterns or proto types and never general issues.

CANADIAN RAILWAY TROOPS DEPOTS

In November 1916 the Headquarters of the Canadian Railway Troops was set up in France with an Administrative Office in London and a Depot and Training Centre at Purfleet, Essex in England. In March 1917 the Administrative Headquarters was established at the General Headquarters of the British Armies in France. The only complete unit furnished by the Depot and Training Centre at Purfleet in 1918 was the 13th Battalion Canadian Railway Troops this in March after which date it only supplied reinforcements to the Battalions in France from the reinforcing drafts arriving from Canada. The unit is thought to have obtained badges during this period. After the signing of the Armistice the Canadian Railway Troops Depot was relocated to Knotty Ash to become a Repatriation Depot. The unit was disbanded along with the rest of the Canadian Railway Troops under General Order 196 of November 1st 1920.

65-7-1-2 Cap OR’s Blackened gilding metal. Maker not identified but believed to be Hicks & Sons 500.00

65-7-1-41 Collars OR’s collars have not been reported Est. 250.00

65-7-1-21 Cap Officers Blackened with silver overlay but believed to be Hicks & Sons 1000.00

65-7-1-61 Collar Officers Blackened with silver overlay but believed to be Hicks & Sons 350.00

In Canada the Depot of the Corps of Canadian Railway Troops was established in Military District No.2 effective June 5th 1918 under General Order 110 of 1918. The unit was disbanded along with the rest of the Canadian Railway Troops under General Order 196 of November 1st 1920. In Canada only the General Service Maple Leaf pattern badges were authorized for Depot Battalions.