jscott Posted 11 February , 2012 Share Posted 11 February , 2012 Hi allI acquired this bayonet six months ago or so and thought it might be an interesting one to post. My understanding is that this is an example of a Russian Mosin Nagant M1891 which was captured early in the war by the Austrians who produced the scabbard for it (as the Russians didn't have scabbards...). Apparently the Germans produced an ersatz scabbard made of zinc with a throat insert to hold the cruciform shaped bayonet in place, and had a round frog stud. I think the Germans used the same scabbard (with a different throat insert) for other types of ersatz bayonets. The Austro-Hungarians produced a much simpler version of the scabbard from steel which were just large enough to fit the bayonet and therefore didn't require a throat insert. The frog stud was a flat tongue bent at 90 degrees. On this basis it would appear that the bayonet I picked up is an Austrian capture (although strangely this scabbard has a ball tip which I don't think they normally did). I suspect that the frog is more recent than the WW1 period (as it doesn't appear to be the typical Austrian WW1 frog). Not in amazing condition, but obviously has some very interesting history and was likely used by both the Russians (pre-capture) and Austrians (post-capture) during the war. If anyone knows any more about these bayonets/ scabbards I would love to discuss! J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 12 February , 2012 Share Posted 12 February , 2012 Hi JS, my knowledge of the socket type bayonets is quite limited, but I do know the Turks ended up with considerably large numbers of the M1891 rifles during the war. These were not only their own captured weapons but also included weapons captured by the Germans on the Eastern Front and which were then passed on as war aid. They were put to fairly widespread use by the Turks and even ended up in the fighting in Palestine. I have seen some good photos but can't seem to find them at the minute. But having said that, I've just had a bit of a look and yours most likely is a A-H variant scabbard, going from what I found on the old-smithy website HERE. See photo below. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 12 February , 2012 Share Posted 12 February , 2012 Been having a look through some more reference books and apparently the Austrians captured so many Mosin-Nagants that they even started making their own bayonets to suit. These often show some Austrian inspection/ownership marks, and also feature the straight cut slot (as is shown above). This differs to the original M1891 which is slightly offset. I can't attest to the veracity of these statements but its certainly an interesting avenue for further research. First thing would be to closely scan the socket end for any odd markings. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 February , 2012 Share Posted 12 February , 2012 ... a Russian Mosin Nagant M1891 ... Not in amazing condition ... That is a very nice example! Mine is a woe-begotten rusted affair bought over here with no scabbard, but I think mine might be a German capture as the eye of faith can just trace the remains of a 'DEUTSCHLAND' stamp on the socket. According to Kiesling (new edition, p.278, no. 869), the Germans stamped their captures with that or (eine kleine!) 'Reichsadler' mark - don't know if the Austrians did something similar. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 12 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2012 S>S & Trajan Thanks for your posts. I had previously found some information on another web site which helped me ID the scabbard, but the link that S>S posted seems to clearly ID the bayonet itself as A-H produced. I cant pick out a clearly stamped eagle however there are stampings on the side of the socket and one of these could definitely be an eagle (but is both very faintly stamped and the surrounding metal is a little corroded). The slot however is dead straight (and not offset as per the Russian 1891), and the scabbard is absolutely identical to the one that you posted below. It seems as once again my quest to obtain a few representative types has been derailed! Trajan - I would love to see a photo or two of your german stamped m1891 if you have any. Thanks, J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 12 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 February , 2012 S>S, I meant to ask what reference book you were looking at in relation to the socket bayonets? I'm still trying to build my reference library (although I keep getting outbid on ebay...) The website that you posted (old smithy) is superb. I have used it before, but mainly in relation to the 1907s. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 February , 2012 Share Posted 13 February , 2012 ... Trajan - I would love to see a photo or two of your german stamped m1891 if you have any. Will try to do one - like I said a certain amount of eye of faith is needed but even though the kids have run off with the magniying glass there is something that looks like letters in the right place to be a DEUTSCHLAND stamp. Have to confess I haven't tried examing it in more detail yet nor have I cleaned it. BUT it is a dog-leg socket. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 February , 2012 Share Posted 13 February , 2012 Difficult to get the lighting right on my desk... But first one is a general view, and in the second one you can just see a stamped letter 'D' from the end of DEUTSCHLAND. At better angles and lighting (hand held in the sunlight) the 'H' is viible too. It really isa b****r, in the sense that the other side, with the serial number, is quite clear and uncorroded, but this side is pitted. Even so, it IS a regular 'Roman' letter stamp, it is in the right place, and the Russians did not stamp their bayonets this side!I Trajan PS: It's the only one I have seen over here - which is why I bought it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 February , 2012 Share Posted 13 February , 2012 Here is the second one - I still haven't got the hang of resizing to this really pathetic 100K limit.... Original photo's were clearer than as re-sized... Like I said, a bit of eye of faith needed... BUT, just right of centre, beneath a paint blob on the top and side of the ricasso, there is a letter 'D'... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 13 February , 2012 Share Posted 13 February , 2012 After 20+ more minutes of trying I think this might be better - and it looks like an 'H' not a 'D'... Certainly a 'Roman' alpabet letter, so the 'H' in DEUTSCHLAND. Now, I think I'll go and hit my head against a brick wall.... And put a new computer and software on the shopping list... Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 13 February , 2012 Share Posted 13 February , 2012 Trajan you really need to get some oil and steel wool on that - you'll be surprised what a difference that will make.! Should clear things up quite a bit ... In the enlarged photo I think I can see a letter P so maybe not German after all. It could well be in the Russian cyrillic which still used some Roman style letters. LINK Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 14 February , 2012 Share Posted 14 February , 2012 Yes, I see what you mean - about oil and steel wool AND this possibly being a 'P'. But the only markings I have ever seen (on the web, at any rate) on a straightforward Russian-use only M91 have been the serial number (always?) on the left and sometimes the makers mark on the ricasso. In this case, the serial mark is on the left, and this letter, whatever it is, is on the right, but it is not in the appropriate location for a maker's mark - but it is where it should be for a 'DEUTSCHLAND' stamp. Oil and steel might tell but will have to wait for the summer, as I have to do that kind of work on the balcony: a nice location, as my beer is stored there, but it is -4 and snowing (again) right now...!!! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 14 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2012 Hi Trajan - I can't actually make out the mark myself - definitely time for some steel wool! I'd love to see how it cleans up. On the steel wool point, are there any tricks to using it on blued metal? I am typically very reluctant to use it at all, but just acquired a P07 which I think could use a light tidy up on the pommel/ quillon. I was thinking of just starting with some denim or thicker cloth and gun oil to see if this would do the trick. Presumably steel wool will remove the blued finish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 14 February , 2012 Share Posted 14 February , 2012 Best to start rubbing lightly and carefully with the cloth as the rust particles can be just as abrasive as the steel wool. The OIL is the key here as it not only penetrates and loosens up the rust, but also lubricates and prevents the scratching from occurring. It all comes down to the amount of pressure applied - well oiled steel wool will not effect the blued finish if done lightly. Remember to use the OIL liberally and wipe it off as it turns that reddish rust colour. And change the cloth when it becomes too dirty. You'll be surprised how effective it is - if still unsure just start on an ordinary common example and then work your way up.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 15 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 15 February , 2012 Thanks - its only very lightly spotted with rust and it looks as though this will come off very easily. I just want to be very careful as its in almost spot on original condition - no CH, regimental marks, brown leather scabbard - so its not the one Id like to start with! I will take it very easy and begin with a cloth as suggested. Good tip about the rust spots themselves being abrasive too. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 7 March , 2012 Share Posted 7 March , 2012 For those who like pointy things, in case you missed my other post on another thread re: my 'new' mosin nagant m91 bayonet (with its A-H erstaz scabbard), here it is (before any attempt at cleaning). Jscott - not trying to usurp the thread, but might be helpful for some viewers to have photo's of the Russian z-socket with the Austrian straight-socket in one thread! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 8 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 8 March , 2012 Good idea Trajan - aways good to keep these topics together if possible! I will be very interested to see how that one cleans up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 March , 2012 Share Posted 9 March , 2012 I will be very interested to see how that one cleans up. Another idea for cleaning up those sockets where they are particularly rusty is to use a commercial rust removing solution (ie. weak phosphoric acid) I have used this before on the odd occasion and it works extremely well to remove that really serious rust. It takes it back to the bare metal in a jiffy.! You just have to be careful and not leave it in the solution for too long - only need a quick dip and a bit of a scrub with a brush then rinse off with water. That would definitely be worth considering for cleaning those sockets up, and there are not any of those timber grips in the way to be a nuisance either.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 9 March , 2012 Share Posted 9 March , 2012 Ta for the suggestion S>S - I had wondered about this method but nice to hear from somebody with more experience. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 9 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 9 March , 2012 Hi S>S - when you say "back to bare metal" are you talking about a bright polished finish, or does it just trip off the surface rust leaving a dull finish? Sounds a bit frightening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 9 March , 2012 Share Posted 9 March , 2012 The acid solution dissolves the iron oxide deposits very quickly but takes much longer to effect the metal surfaces. When the rust is removed it leaves a dull metal finish. Of course once you have got it back to the remaining metal you do need to oil it liberally as the bare surface will quickly start to show signs of surface rust appearing again. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jscott Posted 12 March , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 March , 2012 The acid solution dissolves the iron oxide deposits very quickly but takes much longer to effect the metal surfaces. When the rust is removed it leaves a dull metal finish. Of course once you have got it back to the remaining metal you do need to oil it liberally as the bare surface will quickly start to show signs of surface rust appearing again. Cheers, S>S Thanks - thats quite interesting. No obvious candidates amongst my bayonets for this treatment, but Im sure it will come in use at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 March , 2012 Share Posted 12 March , 2012 ... No obvious candidates amongst my bayonets for this treatment, but Im sure it will come in use at some point Well, for what I generally find in my neck of the woods I think the French have the aposite respone - 'Au contraire'... So, roll on summer and balcony time with this method on a few of mine. Mind you, the real b****r tends to be that usually the pommels are in much worse conditionthan the blades... S>S, have you ever tried electrolysis? I have a bright steel ersatz that I think was treated this way before I got it. Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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