Issue rifles to TF battalions

[geraint]

Would a TF 4th Royal Welsh Fusiliers battalion embarking to France on 5 November 14 have been issued with identical rifles or were they issued with a medley of different sorts? I have a sentence in the battalion history which reads "The transport with our much needed new and replacement rifles failed to arrive, and without it's field kitchen as well. the Fourth departed for Festubert.".They were given new uniforms and some new kit on leaving Northampton for the ship, but expected the weapons in France (which failed to arrive). What were they armed with and how did the armoury / weaponry system catch up with the newly arrived battalions?

[Thunderbox]

They were almost certainly armed with CLLE rifles (Charger-loading Long Lee Enfields) when they embarked for France.

Later on in the war, accounts from recruits and returning wounded indicate that they were issued rifles once they reached the battle training camps in France, such as Etaples. Presumably new and salvaged rifles were returned to depots associated with these camps - it would make sense to send fully-kitted soldiers from this point, rather than anywhere else in the reinforcement pipeline.

I imagine that in November 1914, the British depot and supply system in France would still be fairly rudimentary, but growing quickly. Undoubtedly stocks of rifles would be sent to France for issue to units (by comparison, the WW2 BEF's supply dumps already contained tens of thousands of spare rifles by the time the Battle of France kicked off). Probably the 4th's Brigade would have been called into a supply point at a suitable moment when they were out of the line, and the rifles issued.

[4thGordons]

Would a TF 4th Royal Welsh Fusiliers battalion embarking to France on 5 November 14 have been issued with identical rifles or were they issued with a medley of different sorts?

With regard to this sepicific part of the question - I think that every effort would have been made to ensure the men in each unit had the same type of rifle. Having said that - if you look at some of the pictures from 1914/15 (for example in the nice collection of photos in "Flanders 1915") you can see several variants of Lee-Enfield in the hands of men from the same units in the same trench. Obviously the calibre was standardized so this was not as big a problem as it might have been, however some newer rifles may have been sighted and set up for the new HV MkVII round with a spitzer (pointed) bullet whilst older rifles may have remained sighted for the MkVI round (round nosed bullet). This apparently did cause problems with feeding and magazine operation in some units (we have had a few threads on this issue over time)

Chris

[geraint]

Thanks to you both for your responses. I took for granted that the battalion would have been uniformly armed on arrival in France, despite the immense shortage facing the new army battalions during the same period. The existance of both round and spitzer rounds would have created problems surely? They were involved straight away at Festubert and Givenchy.

[TonyE]

When I was writing my dissertation on the supply of rifles 1914-16 I found this memo from General Kiggell (who was Director of Military Training) written to CIGS on 9 September 1914 suggesting that the Special Reserve battalions should have priority over the newly formed Kitchener battalions for the supply of "latest pattern " i.e. SMLE Mark III rifles.

TNA: PRO WO 32/4870.

“The proposed distribution of rifles sighted for Mark VII ammunition to the Special Reserve battalions is in my opinion insufficient.

As it is not intended to give these units more than 70,000 of the latest pattern rifles, and their establishment has been raised to 91,000, there will be 21,000 men in these units who will be armed with rifles sighted for Mark VI. In addition, in the case of 74 Special Reserve battalions, every draft which goes to the front drains the battalion of its Mark VII sighted rifles. Unless we are careful, therefore, the result will be that soon we shall have some of the trained men in these battalions armed with rifles firing Mark VII ammunition and others with rifles firing Mark VI ammunition.

I think that at least 75% of the men on the strength of these battalions should be armed with the latest pattern rifle.

Further I do not consider that we can afford to complete K1 with Mark VII sighted rifles by the date suggested; a certain number of these rifles should be given to K2 at once for instructional purposes.

I suggest therefore that K1, K2, K3 and local battalions should first receive 25% of rifles sighted for Mark VII ammunition, and that as more of these weapons become available, they should in turn be wholly equipped with this pattern."

It seems that mixed rifles within a unit was reluctantly accepted as necessary.

Regards

TonyE

[Thunderbox]

There are also anecdotes about Long Lee-armed men helping themselves to short rifles and web equipment - presumably there were lots lying around in salvage piles or as unrecorded trench stores.