Terry Carter Posted 2 February , 2012 Share Posted 2 February , 2012 Did the RHA have their own cap badge or did they use the RA badge? Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony paley Posted 2 February , 2012 Share Posted 2 February , 2012 To th best of my knowledge during WW1 and post war they wore the cap badge of the RA. Currently, and I believe, since WW2 when wearing a beret they wear the small cipher badge, and in sd caps wear the normal badge of the Royal Regiment of Artillery. I am sure you will get a visual. I have the badges but not the technical ability. tony P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbox Posted 2 February , 2012 Share Posted 2 February , 2012 From photos, it looks like some officers wore a cypher badge on SD hats even during WW1. These seem to be paired with "flat" RA-style tunic buttons. ORs, by contrast, appear in photos with the RA badge on their SD hats, but "ball" buttons on their tunics. Post WW1, officers seem to follow the OR pattern of RA badges on SD hats, but ball buttons on tunics. Mess kit and No1 dress also have the RA hat badge and ball button combination. WW2 brings back the cypher on the beret, but not the SD/No1 hat. To further confuse the enemy, RA and RHA officers have a flaming grenade on the forage cap/side hat.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjjobson Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 I've never seen the Cypher used as a cap badge during WW1, it only seems to have appeared as a cap badge from the 1930's onwards, and then never on an SD Cap. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 Did the RHA have their own cap badge or did they use the RA badge? Terry I don't think it's a completely clear cut no. According to Gaylor ("Military Badge Collecting" John Gaylor pub Seeley Service and Co 1971 pge 97). "The Territorials did not carry the Ubique scroll until 1917" , he continues: " other distinctive badges were the West Riding RHA with West Riding on the Upper Scroll and the 5th London RFA where 'Fifth appeared above the wheel and London RFA...both are extremely scarce...the RHA had a distinctive badge of their own for certain head dress... the GRV and ER V11 (cyphers) were believed to have been worn in foreign service helmet and were apparently "produced under Regimental arrangements" All that said I am in complete agreement with op-ack, I've never seen anything other than the field gun in WW1. Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbox Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 All that said I am in complete agreement with op-ack, I've never seen anything other than the field gun in WW1. Suddery Not sure on the rules & etiquette of pinching photos from other websites, but in the interests of research here is a link to a webpage. Note the photo of the young RHA officer, and his career - RFA, RHA then KIA in 1915. His cap badge is not RA, and appears to be the shape and size of an RHA cypher. http://www.jjhc.info/heathcaldwellmartinfrederick1915.htm Perhaps some RHA batteries or regiments adopted their own form of dress? Gunners have always been notorious for lack of uniformity between units! (I recall an MGRA going berserk in BAOR in the 80s; he'd inspected about 12 gunner regiments and found each one had a unique form of dress. There was a subsequent uniform standrads clamp-down, which lasted about a week or two before the regimental jumpers/badges/trousers/etc started creeping back in again.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 Not sure on the rules & etiquette of pinching photos from other websites, but in the interests of research here is a link to a webpage. Note the photo of the young RHA officer, and his career - RFA, RHA then KIA in 1915. His cap badge is not RA, and appears to be the shape and size of an RHA cypher. http://www.jjhc.info...ederick1915.htm Perhaps some RHA batteries or regiments adopted their own form of dress? Gunners have always been notorious for lack of uniformity between units! (I recall an MGRA going berserk in BAOR in the 80s; he'd inspected about 12 gunner regiments and found each one had a unique form of dress. There was a subsequent uniform standrads clamp-down, which lasted about a week or two before the regimental jumpers/badges/trousers/etc started creeping back in again.) This looks to me like the badge of the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich (The Shop) which would tie in with his military history. Tthe Cypher badges are all voided with laurels underneath. Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battiscombe Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 yes- that is surely his photo at the Shop.The link is very useful though as it solves a longstanding mystery to me concerning the phrase 'picking up his Jacket', which must be a 'RHA' thing... I had encountered this in a RFA war diary in 1914 and was puzzled as to the meaning (killed?- went home?) and thus appears to reflect a transfer to the RHA. I have never seen the postwar/modern badge on RHA in a WWI photo.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbox Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 This looks to me like the badge of the Royal Military Academy, Woolwich (The Shop) which would tie in with his military history. Tthe Cypher badges are all voided with laurels underneath. Suddery Could be Woolwich, but there is no real way of telling due to the resolution in the photo. He may well have also had that photo taken upon being jacketed; which is a significant event to a thrusting young gunner officer, even today. The modern RHA badges have a void and a scroll underneath, but in WW1 and WW2 there were many variations - many with a solid centre filled with the unit letter/symbol, and with no scroll under the Garter belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbox Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 yes- that is surely his photo at the Shop.The link is very useful though as it solves a longstanding mystery to me concerning the phrase 'picking up his Jacket', which must be a 'RHA' thing... I had encountered this in a RFA war diary in 1914 and was puzzled as to the meaning (killed?- went home?) and thus appears to reflect a transfer to the RHA. I have never seen the postwar/modern badge on RHA in a WWI photo.. When the RHA was first formed in 1793, it adopted cavalry-style jackets, pelisse, sabre-taches, etc. The field artillery retained the tunic of the time. Although RHA, RA, RFA, RGA uniforms later often merged and separated again, the term "jacket" has always referred to the RHA distinction. By tradition the RHA regiments have officially and unofficially been regarded as the top Gunner promotion route, so being selected for an RHA regiment has meant distinction and potential career fast-track. Hence being "jacketed" or "picking up his jacket", or, sometimes "turned into a donkey walloper". Hence also the RHA term "flatty/ flatties", referring to the flat buttons on RA/RFA/RGA uniforms vs the ball buttons on RHA uniforms. Even today, RHA officers and SNCOs who are rotated back to non-RHA units retain ball buttons on their mess dress waistcoats to indicate that they are "jacketed". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianjonesncl Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 Perhaps some RHA batteries or regiments adopted their own form of dress? Gunners have always been notorious for lack of uniformity between units! (I recall an MGRA going berserk in BAOR in the 80s; he'd inspected about 12 gunner regiments and found each one had a unique form of dress. There was a subsequent uniform standrads clamp-down, which lasted about a week or two before the regimental jumpers/badges/trousers/etc started creeping back in again.) Thunderbox I Remember the instruction that came out quite well. Laid out the dress regulations then concluded that the Territorials would continue to dress according their traditions. He obviously realised that it would better not to loose face when everyone ignored his instructions !!! Blue jumpers or green jumpers, side hats / SD / berets, battery / regimental / RA stable belts, 19 Regt and their trews, and patches galore. Must admit, I thought the new regime lasted at lease 4 weeks !!!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battiscombe Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 the linked photo of Heath-Caldwell can be opened to a large image which confirms him with Cadet serjeant stripes - and you can see the RMA badge and his (flat) buttons clearly. In fact a rare photo of a Woolwich cadet Sgt with his stripes in khaki i would think.. and no grenades on collar .. Another 1913 cadet detail attached Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battiscombe Posted 3 February , 2012 Share Posted 3 February , 2012 in fact, might this chap also be Heath-Caldwell - a photo taken in summer 1913 - to be compared with the photo on the link below (or is it my imagination..?) http://www.jjhc.info/heathcaldwellmartinfrederick1915portraita.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 4 February , 2012 Share Posted 4 February , 2012 Could be Woolwich, but there is no real way of telling due to the resolution in the photo. He may well have also had that photo taken upon being jacketed; which is a significant event to a thrusting young gunner officer, even today. The modern RHA badges have a void and a scroll underneath, but in WW1 and WW2 there were many variations - many with a solid centre filled with the unit letter/symbol, and with no scroll under the Garter belt. I think we're focusing on WW1 here and my answer was and is specific to that era - badges of a later period are not relevant to my reply. The badge I saw on your link is not like any pattern of R.A Cyphered badge I am aware of being in currency at that time, either voided or solid or economy etc. All the cyphers had scrolls underneath at that time. I concede the badge could be an RMC officer cadet badge but seems unlikely given the context. I return to the original question and there is no evidence, bar marginal exceptions, that the RHA had there own badge in WW1. If they did so later then I have no dispute. Would be really interested to see any proof to the contrary - badges often seem to have been a movable feast. Regards Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjjobson Posted 4 February , 2012 Share Posted 4 February , 2012 That's definately note an RHA Cypher, It is his RMA cap badge. Following some research I can confirm that although the cypher had originally been used as a badge on teh side of the Tarleton helmet between 1816 and 1827 it fell into disuse until 1926 when the BC of E Bty RHA - then stationed in India - introduced a small white metal badge bearing the cypher of KGV for wear in the solar helmet. These were unofficial issue, and only worn by E Bty personnel. subsequent to this the CO of 1 RHA approached the CO's of the other RHA Regts with the proposal that the E Bty cypher be adopted. This was agreed, but not officially sanctioned until 1948. Regarding the Jacket being an RHA thing, yes that is quite correct. On being posted to the RHA an officer is said to have "got his jacket", and is expected to wet his jacket in the mess. An expensive passtime! I hope that the above is of some interest, but it does confirm that that cannot be an RHA cypher. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 4 February , 2012 Share Posted 4 February , 2012 Pretty much as I thought plus specific detail. Many thanks for that. Old Gaylor's not often wrong ! Regards Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbox Posted 4 February , 2012 Share Posted 4 February , 2012 That's definately note an RHA Cypher, It is his RMA cap badge. Following some research I can confirm that although the cypher had originally been used as a badge on teh side of the Tarleton helmet between 1816 and 1827 it fell into disuse until 1926 when the BC of E Bty RHA - then stationed in India - introduced a small white metal badge bearing the cypher of KGV for wear in the solar helmet. These were unofficial issue, and only worn by E Bty personnel. subsequent to this the CO of 1 RHA approached the CO's of the other RHA Regts with the proposal that the E Bty cypher be adopted. This was agreed, but not officially sanctioned until 1948. Regarding the Jacket being an RHA thing, yes that is quite correct. On being posted to the RHA an officer is said to have "got his jacket", and is expected to wet his jacket in the mess. An expensive passtime! I hope that the above is of some interest, but it does confirm that that cannot be an RHA cypher. Phil Yes, its clear on the RMA badge in the context of the larger photo behind the link. I acknowledge the research and the fact that specialist collectors have written definitive books about badges, etc... .. but there is still something nagging at my memory that makes me unconvinced that 1926 was the year of the re-introduction of the RHA cypher. I still believe I have seen the cypher both in WW1 pictures and in pre-war garrison photos from India. have a feeling these photos were in the museum collections of my own Batteries rather than the public domain, so I have no means to hand of checking. I'll have to look into it the next time I'm at Woolwich or Colchester. (Yes, jacketing can be expensive: I was set the challenge to get a "straight run" of six bottles of Champagne correctly opened with a sword - i.e. top neatly sheared off below the ridge - or empty the Mess stock in the attempt. I vaguely recall that i got most of the way through the Mess champagne stock - 3 or 4 cases - before my champagne saturated (inside and outside) audience degenerated into general sword fights and slashing away at the contents of the fruit baskets on the dinner table. I do recall that my subsequent Mess Bill ate up about two months' salary....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tn.drummond Posted 4 February , 2012 Share Posted 4 February , 2012 Worth it all just for the anecdote... Cheers Suddery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjjobson Posted 4 February , 2012 Share Posted 4 February , 2012 Agreed, I find that following this type of thread always results in learning something, and proving to me how little I actually know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 4 February , 2012 Share Posted 4 February , 2012 According to D Alastair Campbell's fairly definitive "Dress of the Royal Artillery", the RHA introduced the cypher as a 'beret' cap badge in 1948 (having found the gun too large) and took the inspiration for this from a puggaree badge worn in that form during the reigns of George VI and (briefly) Edward VIII. This pretty much confirms the general feeling that the standard gun badge was worn by RHA throughout WW1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Carter Posted 7 February , 2012 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2012 Thanks for all your replies Regards Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 7 February , 2012 Share Posted 7 February , 2012 From a previous posting thuis link shows examples of a number of Royal Regiment of Artillery Badges of WW1 origin... Artillery Badges Pics previous posts.... HB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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