Shot at dawn - British WW1 Military Executions.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, RegHannay said:

Thank you Frogsmile, I will look out for the book. For some reason the name Crozier rings bells .. Dave D

If I recall correctly after the war he either joined the Black and Tans, or was in some way associated with them.  He comes across as an intelligent and competent officer, but something of a thug.

Edited 15 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[MaureenE]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 ...you might be interested to know that Private McCracken and his execution were written about by his now infamous commanding officer, Lt Col (later Brig Gen) Frank Crozier, who wrote several books about his military experience, including one called ‘The Men I Killed’.  The books makes good, if rather unedifying, reading.

Available online 

A Brass Hat in No Man's Land by Brig.-Gen. F P Crozier 1930. Archive.org.

The Men I Killed by Brigadier General F P Crozier 1937 Archive.org

 Frank Percy Crozier Wikipedia.

 

Another online book by Crozier, nothing to do with the Great War 

 

Five Years Hard: Being an account of the fall of the Fulani Empire and a picture of the daily life of a Regimental Officer among the people of the Western Sudan by Brigadier-General FP Crozier. 1932 Archive.org. Early 1900s. Note: missing some pages.

 

Cheers

Maureen

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, Maureene said:

Available online 

A Brass Hat in No Man's Land by Brig.-Gen. F P Crozier 1930. Archive.org.

The Men I Killed by Brigadier General F P Crozier 1937 Archive.org

 Frank Percy Crozier Wikipedia.

 

Another online book by Crozier, nothing to do with the Great War 

 

Five Years Hard: Being an account of the fall of the Fulani Empire and a picture of the daily life of a Regimental Officer among the people of the Western Sudan by Brigadier-General FP Crozier. 1932 Archive.org. Early 1900s. Note: missing some pages.

 

Cheers

Maureen

Thanks Maureen, I’m glad to see that you’ve survived the conflagration in NSW.

 

l cannot remember if the details about Pte McCracken are in the Brass hat, or Men I killed book.

[RegHannay]

On 15/01/2020 at 20:32, FROGSMILE said:

If I recall correctly after the war he either joined the Black and Tans, or was in some way associated with them.  He comes across as an intelligent and competent officer, but something of a thug.

Yes, just been reading a little about Crozier. Don't think I would have liked him to much

[corisande]

On 15/01/2020 at 21:32, FROGSMILE said:

If I recall correctly after the war he either joined the Black and Tans, or was in some way associated with them.  He comes across as an intelligent and competent officer, but something of a thug.

 

Crozier was nothing to do with the Black & Tans.

 

Crozier was OC of the Auxiliary Division of the RIC. I just happen to have a CV on him - click

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, corisande said:

 

Crozier was nothing to do with the Black & Tans.

 

Crozier was OC of the Auxiliary Division of the RIC. I just happen to have a CV on him - click

Yes, I was unsure and so used the expression “or associated with”, as I recalled the RIC Auxiliaries (similar to the much later RUC B-Specials), and meant it in the sense of fellow parts of the British Government forces.  It didn’t seem an unreasonable description?

Edited 20 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, RegHannay said:

Yes, just been reading a little about Crozier. Don't think I would have liked him to much

I feel that one gets a very clear impression of his character via the following link: https://theauxiliaries.com/men-alphabetical/men-c/crozier/crozier.html

[RegHannay]

11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I feel that one gets a very clear impression of his character via the following link: https://theauxiliaries.com/men-alphabetical/men-c/crozier/crozier.html

Mmmm, you certainly would not want to lend him a few quid!!

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, RegHannay said:

Mmmm, you certainly would not want to lend him a few quid!!

Yes, he really exemplifies how war changes or distorts social norms in such a profound way.

Edited 19 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[corisande]

 

I would in all  modestly say that Charles Messenger's life of Crozier

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Broken-Sword-Tumultuous-General-1897-1937-ebook/dp/B00ME3JLDI

Is a much more detailed look at Crozier's life than my web site that you quoted

Read that to get more behind Crozier

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, corisande said:

 

I would in all  modestly say that Charles Messenger's life of Crozier

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Broken-Sword-Tumultuous-General-1897-1937-ebook/dp/B00ME3JLDI

Is a much more detailed look at Crozier's life than my web site that you quoted

Read that to get more behind Crozier

I’ve only just realised that the link I posted for RegHannay to see is the same one you posted above (I had not opened it).  Thank you for the tip regarding Charles Messenger’s biography of Crozier, I shall look out for it.

[MaureenE]

The link previously quoted above  https://theauxiliaries.com/men-alphabetical/men-c/crozier/crozier.html includes an obituary which says Crozier described himself  as “different to anyone else”, and also refers to his lack of subtlety . Croziers’s book about his African experiences reveal a culture of heavy alcohol consumption (seemingly much more so than in the Army in India at the same period ) and I wonder whether this excessive drinking had resulted in some brain changes which negatively impacted on his decision making and behaviour.

 

Cheers

Maureen

[corisande]

3 hours ago, Maureene said:

Croziers’s book about his African experiences reveal a culture of heavy alcohol consumption (seemingly much more so than in the Army in India at the same period ) and I wonder whether this excessive drinking had resulted in some brain changes which negatively impacted on his decision making and behaviour.

 

Crozier became teetotal in 1911 and it is believed that he never touched alcohol after that

 

He later became a pacifist too.

[YorkshireLass]

Thank you for those that have posted in this most interesting topic. I’ve read through the 18 pages and read the many thoughtful and balanced discussions. At the risk of making the post even longer I was especially interested in Ron’s post of 10 November 1917, which referred to the two members of the 18th West Yorks who were shot at dawn - 5th Sept 1916 Herbert Crimmins, 32 and Arthur Wild, 24, shot for desertion. There are some details about the circumstances at https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/tahistory/14615343.the-bradford-men-killed-by-their-own-side-during-the-great-war/

My grandfather Thomas was in the 21st West Yorks, and he remained extremely bitter about their deaths. He seemed to know a considerable amount about what had happened, (so much in fact my father always wondered what his source of information had been) and Tom always said that in the three days the pair were missing they had actually joined another unit, whilst looking for their own unit,  and taken part in an attack whilst with them, yet this had never come out in their court martial. Incidentally Wild (son of Thomas and Phoebe) in civilian life appears to have been a constable with the city of Bradford police. 

Obviously it’s so long ago now, and those involved are all long gone, and the sources are so limited, that it isn’t possible to find the truth. But either way, what a high price they paid to go and meet a couple of ladies, and have a couple of drinks. 
 

 

 

[ilkley remembers]

On 14/08/2023 at 12:34, YorkshireLass said:

Sept 1916 Herbert Crimmins, 32 and Arthur Wild, 24,

Yes Arthur Wild was a police Constable in the Bradford City Police. He is one of 70 officers from the force who were listed in a newspaper report in 1915. He had enlisted into the 18th West Yorks Reg., 2nd Bradford Pals earlier that year along with a number of his colleagues some of whom were part of the firing squad.

The circumstances of his execution along with that of Herbert Crimmins is well covered in David Raw's book 'Bradford Pals'.

PC Wild's name was not included on the Bradford City Police Roll of Honour which listed 186 men from the force nor from memory is he listed on the memorial plaque to the dead from the force that used to be located in the old Bradford Central Police Station. His name is, however, listed on the Bradford roll of honour although without any detail of his death.

A new plaque to the fallen of the City Police does name him as one of the fallen. This is located in the Bradford Police Museum which is underneath the City Hall in what was once the Bridewell.

The family of Arthur Wild were aware of the unfortunate circumstances surrounding his death and on his grave had carved "Not forgotten by those who loved him best"

IR

[YorkshireLass]

Thank you so much for adding this. I’ll try to find Raw’s book. 

[keithmroberts]

21 hours ago, YorkshireLass said:

Thank you so much for adding this. I’ll try to find Raw’s book. 

Still available on Amazon. I met david Raw many years ago at an event in Oxford, and he was able to share some information with me about an interview that he conducted with the daughter of a relative who had been one of the original Bradford pals. The book is better organised than the one by Ralph Hudson, but both are worth a read.

[YorkshireLass]

Thank you - I’ll look it out. 

[David_Blanchard]

Does anyone have a copy of Death Sentences Passed by Military Courts of the British Army 1914 - 1924, Gerard Oram.

 

I am trying to find out more about Private Arthur Hamilton of the DLI executed in 1917. Does Oram’s book include information from court martial trials? 
 

Hamilton’s reference is WO71/ 550

 

I have his service record and from various sources he apparently was an ALIAS - previously known as Blanchard from Belfast, but cannot trace when he changed his name or anything about Hamilton or Blanchard- other than he has a brother James Hamilton from Sunderland.

 

Any help appreciated in helping to solve the riddle of Hamilton/ Blanchard 

 

 

David 

 

[rolt968]

3 hours ago, David_Blanchard said:

Does anyone have a copy of Death Sentences Passed by Military Courts of the British Army 1914 - 1924, Gerard Oram.

 

I am trying to find out more about Private Arthur Hamilton of the DLI executed in 1917. Does Oram’s book include information from court martial trials? 
 

Hamilton’s reference is WO71/ 550

 

I have his service record and from various sources he apparently was an ALIAS - previously known as Blanchard from Belfast, but cannot trace when he changed his name or anything about Hamilton or Blanchard- other than he has a brother James Hamilton from Sunderland.

 

Any help appreciated in helping to solve the riddle of Hamilton/ Blanchard 

 

 

David 

 

I have a copy of Oram.

Unfortunately it really only contains lists of the names of the men sentenced with in some but not all cases a footnote giving the PRO reference and occasionally the odd but of information. In the case of Hamilton (no mention of Blanchard)  The footnote gives the reference which you have and his age, 31.

The full entry in the lists is as follows:

Hamilton, Arthur;   14 Durham LI;  Pte.;    15/02/1917 (Date of sentence);    Desertion;   27/03/1917 (Date of execution);    F&F;     [Ref] 213/14 (i.e WO 71/500/ 213/14)

RM

Edited 1 November , 2023 by rolt968

[kenf48]

Putowski and Sykes 'Shot at Dawn' p165 have a paragraph on this soldier.

I can copy it later  if you have not seen it. He apparently gave false particulars when arrested in Calais.

[David_Blanchard]

Hi Ken,

the reference for this is WO 93/49 but the same reference also applies to Pte William Bowerman on page 164.

Not sure as yet what WO93 documents are concerned with. 
 

In 2003 I wrote to Julien P, but he never got back to me. The thread in the forum where I mentioned this is concerned with Harry Blanchard Wood, VC. 
 

(sorry my tech skills don’t allow me to provide a link to this here)

 

The article in the Northern Echo from 2006 is here

 

https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/814247.shot-dawn-unfit-fight-shot-without-facing-enemy/

Hamilton’s Service Record mentions nothing about having served as Blanchard from Belfast. 

David 

Edited 1 November , 2023 by David_Blanchard