GRANVILLE Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 I'd be grateful if anyone can tell me what the rifles are that these men have. I'm guessing they are Lee Metford's with the magazines removed? If so, does any particular reason spring to mind? This is a family photo and the Lance Corporal (front row kneeling left) is a Fred Baker from Burton on Trent. We don't however know anything about where or when taken etc. Looking at the rifles and the leather belts it looks very early to me. I'd furthermore be interested to know what the badge is he and the other LC on the back row are wearing over their right breast pockets. Dave Upton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon2 Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 At first glance I thought maybe dummy rifles for drills only. Maybe a martini or you maybe right Metford. Simililar shape maybe the older Mk 1 model ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipperary Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 Hi Dave could not say on rifles but the badge signifies having signed for overseas as a teritorial,cant think of right name.john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ander11 Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 Hello Dave , I have seen a You tube Video and its does look like Lee Metford 1889 Mk1 you can find it here I hope this helps best regards Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon2 Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 Imperial Service Badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbox Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 The rifles are Japanese Type 30 Arisakas. UK bought about 150,000 Arisakas 30/38 in 1914 for training, second line and RN use. Note the bayonet with hooked quillion from which, apparently, Britain's own P1907 was copied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 27 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2012 Brilliant set of answers, thanks chaps. Fred was indeed a Territorial who signed up as soon as he could for overseas service, and indeed he paid a heavy price during his time over there, being wounded a number of times, the last being a near fatal head wound, which the Germans took care of with a plate in his head followed by a spell in prison hospital etc. The YouTube rifle clip is excellent and seems to me to confirm they will be Lee Met's. I can only assume the magazines have been removed for a purpose although I cant think what. Thanks again. Dave Upton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 The rifles are Japanese Type 30 Arisakas. UK bought about 150,000 Arisakas 30/38 in 1914 for training, second line and RN use. Note the bayonet with hooked quillion from which, apparently, Britain's own P1907 was copied. +1 on this, definitely Ariskas. I'll post a picture of one when I get home. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 27 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2012 +1 on this, definitely Ariskas. I'll post a picture of one when I get home. Chris Now that's a revelation, and I would never have guessed this. Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 Here is a Northumberland Fusilier with an Arisaka and example of the rifle Key points of distinction: Straight bolt (as opposed to the metford/enfields turned down bolt), absence of external box magazine (already noted)prominent dust cover over action (far larger than that on MLE/MLM) and carbine version which the UK also purchased (dustcover is missing on my example). Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRANVILLE Posted 27 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2012 Chris, Excellent post as ever, thanks very much. I presume these were all imported asap due to shortage within our own arsenal's? Do I take it this was a single shot rifle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 Chris, Excellent post as ever, thanks very much. I presume these were all imported asap due to shortage within our own arsenal's? Do I take it this was a single shot rifle? Here is another group with Arisakas - also TF men - you can see one is wearing the Imp Service badge on his hat! The rifle is 6.5mm calibre and has an internal 5 round magazine so the capacity was the same as standard German Mausers etc. The rifles were indeed purchased early in the war to make up for shortages - TonyE is your man if you want chapter and verse on these as he (literally) wrote the book on them. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 Of course in the original photo, the rifles are also immediately identifiable by the very clear shot of the crossed bayonets at the front. By mainly the style and method of attachment. They are 'like' the P1907 British bayonet but also very different in their method of attachment, with an extended offset crossguard. So there you go, bayonets are useful after all.!! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 Of course in the original photo, the rifles are also immediately identifiable by the very clear shot of the crossed bayonets at the front. By mainly the style and method of attachment. They are 'like' the P1907 British bayonet but also very different in their method of attachment, with an extended offset crossguard. So there you go, bayonets are useful after all.!! Cheers, S>S Ha! LOL Very different from the p1888 as per the Metford But very similar in their mode of attachment to the p1907 no? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 But very similar in their mode of attachment to the p1907 no? I think I'll just give you a minute to think about it - come on, you know this one.! Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 27 January , 2012 Share Posted 27 January , 2012 I think I'll just give you a minute to think about it - come on, you know this one.! Cheers, S>S Ok.....if you mean the whole BARREL thing.... but without the rifle that isn't apparent - demonstrating that it is the RIFLE not the little pointy thing that is most important! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 28 January , 2012 Share Posted 28 January , 2012 And now here to illustrate the 'not so subtle' differences between an Arisaka and the SMLE (when it comes to attaching the bayonet) are a couple of closeup pictures. The P1907 bayonet at the top is attached to the SMLE rifle, via the specially designed bayonet lug or "boss" below the barrel, so as not to interfere with the rifle 'harmonics'. While the Arisaka bayonet shown at bottom, attaches in the more standard fashion with the 'muzzle-ring' that encircles the barrel, and can have an effect on the way it shoots. In this case it is also worth remembering that the 'Long Lee' rifles (Enfield or Metford) never fitted the P1907 bayonet, but took the much shorter and double-edged P1888 blade. Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 28 January , 2012 Share Posted 28 January , 2012 Would have been much better demonstrated with a hooky 1907 you are correct of course Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 January , 2012 Share Posted 28 January , 2012 Only just seen this interesting thread! Were the UK-purchased bayonets made/issued with regular Japanese stampings? Did they have any UK markings? In other words, any way of telling if an example was issued to a UK unit? TIA, Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 28 January , 2012 Share Posted 28 January , 2012 I have heard rumours that some Arisaka bayonets can be found with the British style unit markings and rack numbers, but personally I have never seen any . Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 28 January , 2012 Share Posted 28 January , 2012 British issue bayonets for the Arisaka are quite rare these days, as the great majority of the rifles and bayonets were sent to Russia in 1916. At the end of the war only 17,418 Japanese rifles still in store at Fort Belvedere and the Department of Disposals sold these to a UK dealer and it is believed they went to Finland. When I was writing my book on the Arisaka I looked at a number of Type 30 bayonets that were probably used by British forces. All carried standard Japanese service markings and only two carried British markings. One simply had a small Broad Arrow and the other was stamped with a Broad Arrow and "S.G." for Scots Guards on the grips. However, many of the rifles are British unit marked, usually on the receiver tang. In addition to the weapons Britain also purchased the Japanese leather belt, frog and carrying equipment and sealed these as "J" Pattern Equipment. Bayonet picture attached of two British issue bayonets. Left one marked "^SG", right unmarked. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 28 January , 2012 Share Posted 28 January , 2012 Thanks TonyE, I just tried Carl's Old Smithy , http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/examples_of_arisaka_ba.htm, and he says the UK ones are 'Distinguished by their highly blued finish over the Japanese models, as they were all stripped and refurbished before entering service'. He also shows one marked '243' over ' 2/16 LD' , naming this for a 'London Regiment' (sic), although the 'L' looks a bit odd... Any comments?? Trajan PS: your 'book on the Arisaka' - I take it that's Arisaka things wot go bang? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyE Posted 28 January , 2012 Share Posted 28 January , 2012 Yes, the book is about the Arisaka rifles and carbines in British service in WWI and covers the weapons, ammunition and accoutrements in detail. It is Part 1 of my series of four books on British secondary small arms during the war. The one you mention sounds correct, as the second line Territorial battalions of the London Regiment certainly received Arisakas. Here is a picture of a Type 38 (British Pattern 1907) issued to the 2/13th in January 1915. I have seen others as well and I show a picture of Kitchener inspecting members of the London Regiment at the Guildhall who are armed with Arisakas. Regards TonyE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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