ROYAL FLYING CORPS ITALY NOV. 1917

[Guest LEB]

I have come across a photo of my grandfather in Royal Flying Corps uniform on the reverse of which he has written Italy November 1917. There is nothing on the photo indicating what Brigade he was in. Were there many brigades in Italy in Nov. 1917, and is there anyway I can obtain any information. He luckily survived the war and lived well into his 90s but I know nothing of his time during the war. His son thinks he flew in a Sopwith Camel - but not sure.

[Dolphin]

The VII Brigade RFC was established in Italy in November 1917 under Brigadier-General T I Webb-Bowen; all the RFC units in Italy at this time were in VII Brigade. Originally, there were five squadrons in VII Brigade: Nos 28 (Camel), 34 (RE8), 42 (RE8), 45 (Camel) and 66 (Camel). In addition, there was an Aeroplane Supply Depot and an Aircraft Park. Early in 1918 the RE8 squadrons were grouped into the 51st (Corps) Wing while the Camels were in the 14th (Army) Wing. By that time the 4th Balloon Wing had also joined the Brigade.

A brief, and readable, history of the RFC, RNAS and RAF in Italy is Norman MacMillan's 'Offensive Patrol' ISBN 0 09 116180 0.

If you would like to post your grandfather's name, there are a few of us on the Forum who will be pleased to have a look for mention of him in the appropriate books.

[paul guthrie]

There is an officer pilot buried there near the Paive, can't remember name of cemetery, his name is Guthrie and he was born in Hawaii!

[Guest LEB]

Thank you Dolphin for your reply. My grandfather's name was LEONARD (LEN) ERNEST BROOKES he would have been 21 in 1917 and was living in Birmingham or Kidderminster immediately before the war. I would be very grateful for any information you could obtain.

[Dolphin]

LEB

Unfortunately, I have to report that I couldn't find mention of your grandfather in the popular histories I consulted. I looked at memoirs and other accounts in books and magazines about the three Camel squadrons in Italy (Nos 28, 45 and 66) plus the two RE8 squadrons, but without success.

I also looked in Volume VI of 'The War in the Air' and 'The Sky Their Battlefield' (a catalogue of all British and Empire casualties, fatal and otherwise, in air combat. In addition, I consulted 'The Camel File' which details the history of every Camel made, with mention of the pilots who flew the machines when something of note happened. Your grandfather isn't mentioned, which only shows that he didn't shoot down an enemy aircraft, get shot down, or otherwise crash while flying a Camel.

So it seems he might be one of those men referred to as 'unknown' in squadron photographs of the day.

I hope someone else has more success.

Cheers

Gareth

[Guest LEB]

Thank you Gareth so much for searching for my Grandfather. What a disappointment though. But many thanks for your time. I will keep my fingers crossed that someone may come up with something.

[alanthevet]

I don't know what research you have already done on your grandfather, but it sounds like you have very little information on him.

I was in a similar situation with my two granduncles, both of whom died during the war.

I am Irish so, rather than travelling over to Kew to manually search the archives myself, I employed one of the guys recommended. It cost me about £100 in total, but it was the best money I have spend in quite a while.

I got lucky with one of my granduncles. Both enlisted with the Royal Munster Fusiliers but one was seconded to the RFC. He was a second lieutenant in the RFC in France and his records were available. There was lots of good stuff there, from his enlistment papers to medical records; even a copy of the telegram sent to my great gradfather informing him of his son's death. The search also turned up some flight reports, where victories were scored, and also the report, deatiling the circumstances of his death. Fascinating!

Unfortunately there are almost no records surviving for my other granduncle, who stayed with the Royal Munster Fusiliers and was not an officer. He was KIA during the 3rd Battle of Ypres - grave unknown. The only thing I have for him is the medal card. I am getting some of the experts on this discussion forum to have a look at it to see if they can get anything more out of it than me.

I think that, if have not already done so, you should get somebody to have a trawl of the records. It may turn up something interesting, and if it doesn't it won't cost you too much. They will only charge extra if the initial search gives some results that warrant further investigation.

Good luck,

Alan

[Guest LEB]

Thank you Alan for your interest. How did you go about employing someone to search the records at Kew for you? I will try and find out some more about my grandfather and then try and get someone to do a search for me.

Also - can someone please tell me what the CWGC is? I've seen it mentioned a couple of times on messages - but not sure what it is.

Also has anyone a photo of a Sopwith Camel please?

Many thanks for any info.

CWGC = Commonwealth War Graves Commission

Edited 6 August , 2004 by Chris_Baker

[Dolphin]

LEB

Here's a photo of a Camel for you. It's B6362 of No 28 Sqn RFC and it went to Italy after this photo was taken while it was being examined by French personnel in France (where Lt J H Mitchell was credited with two victories over Albatros D.Vs on 27 October 1917). The cloth pennants attached to the rear interplane struts are the markings of a flight leader, ie the senior pilot who was at the front of a formation and who was in charge.

In Italy 2Lt Harold Butler was credited with a shared victory over a kite balloon on 28 December 1917 and an Albatros D.III on 20 February 1918. 2Lt A G Cooper was flying B6362 when he was credited with a shared Albatros D.III on 29 December 1917.

B6362 failed to return from a patrol on 22 February 1918; 2Lt H Butler was killed in action.

CWGC stands for Commonwealth War Graves Commission.

I hope this helps.

Gareth

[alanthevet]

This is the guy I got. I cannot remember how I selected him but it was I'm sure linked to some website I was in.

Maybe some of the other people on this forum have more experience than me but I can recommend this fellow.

He was quick, thorough, reliable and helpful.

He didn't cost a bomb, spelled out exactly what he would charge in advance, and delivered on his promises.

As he discovered information he copied it and sent it on promptly. I was able to instruct him accordingly as to whether he should continue or not.

The information he got for me is priceless in my view.

I would not have had a clue as to where to start my search, never mind the cost of travel and accommodation.

I hope that he doesn't mind me giving him a plug!

He is:-

Roger E Nixon

Military & Historical Searches

PO Box 11267

LONDON SW5 9ZZ UK

tel: +44/(0)207 244 7095

email: rogerEnixon@pro-search.co.uk

RogerEnixon

Get back to me if you need more info.

Alan

[Guest LEB]

Gareth and Alan - thank you both very much for the very useful information you have given me. Lots to think about. Just one thing Gareth - I am unable to copy the photo as your entry is actually wider than the other entries - so when I try to copy it (particularly the photo of the Camel) I lose about an eighth of the width. I am probably being very dim but not sure how to overcome it?

[Dolphin]

LEB

I don't know how to overcome your problem. Perhaps you could save the photo on to a disc and then print it.

I've rotated the image and attached it again below. Maybe this will work.

Cheers

Gareth

[ChrisM]

LEB -

I’m probably trying to teach grandmother how to suck eggs, but assuming you use Windows have you tried the following?

- Right click on the picture

- Left click on Save Picture As

- Select the destination folder, change the picture name if you want and save

- Fire up whatever imaging software you use (Photo Editor, PictureIt etc., etc.)

- Open the saved pic. through that

Then you’ll be able to manipulate the image and print it out any way you want.

Not sure about the wide text but if it’s a problem the easiest thing might be to highlight it and copy/paste it into Word or similar.

Chris

[Guest LEB]

Gareth

Many thanks for re-sending the photo of the Camel - I have now been able to copy it. I looks so very fragile doesn't it? How many would be on board - one or two? I have presumed that my Grandfather was a pilot as in the photo of him in the Flying Corps uniform he is wearing goggles, but presumably he could have been an observer flying in a Camel?

[Guest LEB]

Thank you CHRISM - I am afriad this Grandmother is a bit thick when it comes to the computer - but yes I have now been able to save an image of the Camel. Many thanks.

[Dolphin]

LEB

The Camel was a single seater (except for a small number that were converted to two seaters for use at training units).

If your grandfather was an observer serving in the RFC in Italy in late 1917, then he may have been in either No 34 or No 42 Squadron, with the former the more likely. These units flew the two seat RE8 in an artillery observation and reconnaisance role. A photograph of a No 34 Sqn RE8 is below.

I hope this helps.

Gareth

[Dolphin]

LEB

Further to the above post, I've attached a drawing and basic specifications for the Sopwith Camel below.

Cheers

Gareth

[Dolphin]

LEB

In case your grandfather was in the rear compartment of an RE8, the aircraft nicknamed the 'Harry Tate' after a music hall comedian whose routine involved impossible machines, here's a drawing of an RE8.

Although rather ungainly, the RE8 performed yeoman service during the War and was used in numbers on the Western Front, in Italy, Mesopotamia and Palestine. Some went to Russia in 1919, where one came close to dropping bombs on Moscow during General Deniken's advance on that city.

More than a few enemy fighter pilots were shot down when attacking the under-rated RE8.

Cheers

Gareth

[ChrisM]

LEB

Further to Dolphin’s last comment, and IF your grandfather was in RE8s and IF it was possibly 34 Squadron in which he served…… I assume you have noticed my recent posting “34 Squadron in Italy, Identities sought” and have had a close look at the individuals.

Chris

[Guest LEB]

Hi ChrisM

No unfortunately my grandfather does not appear to be in the photo. He was a short man - probably only just over 5.ft. (his daughter was 5.ft.3/4 inch and in a photo of them both they look about the same height) - so he would probably be quite easy to pick out. He was a small man but with a big personality.

[Guest LEB]

Gareth - Many thanks for all the info. (and for turning the photos so that I was able to copy them!). All fascinating. I just wish I could find out defintely which squadron my grandfather was in. I am nagging my Uncle to search through all his father's old papers so am keeping my fingers crossed that he will come up with something useful!