The 5th Army

[Desmond7]

Robert - a V. interesting contribution. I was stopped in my tracks by the 'Empty Battlfield' paragraph!

Went back the beginning and read through again to soak all facts in.

Printed out for further re-read!

Thank you.

Des

[armourersergeant]

Robert,

Oops yes the book.

What i meant to say was that Gough very rarley has any defenders for his generalship where as Haig is often split in the voting. Poor Hubert was promoted to high or atleast too quickly. he could have done with another year at corps level before moving on. I wonder if Currie or Monash would have been as effective had they been jumped to the top without learning the best ways over the years?

As for Malcolm and Gough working together. If I remember correctly Farrar Hockley implied that malcolm was playing bad cop to Goughs good cop and that Gough was not aware of this. He should have been aware, especially if he chose him as his COS for his 'sameness' to him. I think that Gough did know but either thought it a good idea or choose to ignore it, hoping it would get the job done. Some fear is after all a good motivator, or so my boss thinks.

I have though for along time that the staff are as important as the commander, in fact more so in instances. A good staff can carry a bad commander if he has the sense to let them. Where as a bad staff can not be covered by a good command er as he gets the wrong advise and support.

Goughie by Farraar Hockley had a large infleuence on the way i looked at generalship after i read it. I found myself wondering if someone could put up on the face of it a good defence of Gough then perhaps the myths were just that about nmuch we know. So whilst i disregard alot of what i read in the book it served to open my mind.

regards

Arm.

[Robert Dunlop]

What i meant to say was that Gough very rarley has any defenders for his generalship where as Haig is often split in the voting.

Arm.

Haig is like a proxy for all that is good and all that is bad about the British war effort. Arguments about Haig have this sort of flavour about them.

Poor Hubert was promoted to high or atleast too quickly. he could have done with another year at corps level before moving on. I wonder if Currie or Monash would have been as effective had they been jumped to the top without learning the best ways over the years?

A good point, though someone with a different temperament or style might have made a better fist of it.

As for Malcolm and Gough working together. If I remember correctly Farrar Hockley implied that malcolm was playing bad cop to Goughs good cop and that Gough was not aware of this. He should have been aware, especially if he chose him as his COS for his 'sameness' to him. I think that Gough did know but either thought it a good idea or choose to ignore it, hoping it would get the job done. Some fear is after all a good motivator, or so my boss thinks.

It would be very surprising if Gough did not know at some level. It might be the 'fear is a motivator' thing. It might be that he was ok with theoretical teaching but not good at practical training. Several writers have noted that true academic learning was frowned on within Staff circles. So Gough may have been adequate in the Staff College environment but not capable of teaching, or more importantly knowing how teaching/training should be carried out by his senior staff, in the environment where it mattered most.

I have though for along time that the staff are as important as the commander, in fact more so in instances. A good staff can carry a bad commander if he has the sense to let them. Where as a bad staff can not be covered by a good command er as he gets the wrong advise and support.

I agree with your first point. A good commander, IMHO, should be able to recognise bad staff and take measures to improve/replace them. This is a key attribute that is inseparable from the word 'good'.

Goughie by Farraar Hockley had a large infleuence on the way i looked at generalship after i read it. I found myself wondering if someone could put up on the face of it a good defence of Gough then perhaps the myths were just that about nmuch we know. So whilst i disregard alot of what i read in the book it served to open my mind.

At some stage, I will get round to reading this account. Sounds interesting.

Robert