Returned Medals?

[Tommy]

Hi there

I'm researching my great great uncle Arthur Jarman. He was in the RFA went over with the BEF in 1914 and was killed at mons 28/8/1914 aged 17. I have just brought his MIC online and it says 2 things that are new to me........ first one says died POW this is something that y family no nothing about i thought he had just been killed in action. It also says medals awarded 14 star bar trio (returned) I take this to mean his father would have returned them? but I have his death plaque did these not come at the same time? and would these medals have been destroyed when returned? any help would be a great help....

regards

Tom

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

His medal would have been despatched 14 Star first followed by the BWM & Victory medal together, sometimes in the same box, sometimes in separate boxes. The plaque and scroll were sent at a different time to the medals but together.

Ian

[Tommy]

Thanx Ian! I don't suppose ur fluent in the art of reading medal index cards r u?

tom

[Staffsyeoman]

Tom;

It's not so suspicious or motivated. I see this often in medal rolls; it could just be that they were sent in the post to the last known address, or Next of Kin address - and were returned 'not known at this address' and so on. I can't deny that grief stricken relatives may have sent the medals back, but it's something you can't quantify, and on balance, I think would be unlikely.

The medals were returned to store (can't recall the period) in case they were claimed subsequently.

Here are two examples from the MGC Territorial Force War Medal roll:

113915 PTE SPIERS G A 1244 6/HAMPS MEDAL RETURNED

137631 PTE SPRAGG WG 2159 6/GLOSTER MEDAL REISSUED 8 FEB 21

Spiers (who had qualified for the medal as a member of 6th Bn Hampshire Regt) had been sent the medal, but it came back unsigned for. Spragg's medal had a similar fate, but was late claimed and sent.

I'm not an expert on the Memorial Plaque (the leading expert - Racing Teapots - resides on the Forum) sure others can give you a better steer on dispatch of plaques.

Hope that helps.

Phil

[Tommy]

cheers Ian

[Guest Pete Wood]

A scroll was often sent ahead of a plaque; sometimes by as much as a year (or even more). The situation got better when Woolwich took over production of the plaques.

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

A scroll was often sent ahead of a plaque; sometimes by as much as a year (or even more). The situation got better when Woolwich took over production of the plaques.

So why does the receipt, frequently found in WO 363 files, that had to be signed by the NoK and returned to the War Office acknowledge receipt of both plaque and scroll?

Ian

[PhilB]

Tommy, although he was, technically, not KIA at Mons (23-24 Aug), he almost certainly was wounded at Mons and died of wounds 26 Aug (CWGC). A very early casualty! The fact that he has NKG (La Ferte sous Jouarre Memorial) would suggest to me that, though captured, he didn`t make it to POW camp but died local to the action. Phil B

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

.........but was a POW.

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

Hi there

I'm researching my great great uncle Arthur Jarman. He was in the RFA went over with the BEF in 1914 and was killed at mons 28/8/1914 aged 17. I have just brought his MIC online and it says 2 things that are new to me........ first one says died POW this is something that y family no nothing about i thought he had just been killed in action. It also says medals awarded 14 star bar trio (returned) I take this to mean his father would have returned them? but I have his death plaque did these not come at the same time? and would these medals have been destroyed when returned? any help would be a great help....

regards

Tom

The Medals of my Great Uncle Rfm;Peter David Vanhinsbergh 13th{S}Bn;The Rifle Brigade,Had been returned to the Mint after initial despatch in the 1920s,A fact I discovered in the 1980s & was able with the assistance of his last then remaining Brother,to have them re~Issued then.The reason for their initial return was that his Widow had remarried after his death in 1918 & moved on,thus the addressee was "not known @ this address"

The Medals had to be especially struck as the original issue had been destroyed after the time period had expired.

[Guest Pete Wood]

A scroll was often sent ahead of a plaque; sometimes by as much as a year (or even more). The situation got better when Woolwich took over production of the plaques.

So why does the receipt, frequently found in WO 363 files, that had to be signed by the NoK and returned to the War Office acknowledge receipt of both plaque and scroll?

Ian

Ian, you have seen more records than I've had hot dinners. So I'm unable to explain what you've seen. However, I can assure you I have plenty of paperwork from the War Office complaining that the plaque factory was running behind schedule and running behind the production of the scrolls (most of which were finished in 18 months), whereas the plaques took around four years for the bulk of production.

A receipt was not necessarily required for the scrolls which was sent by Records Offices, while the plaques were sent by the factory (and always with a post-card receipt).

Here are the regulations for issue (I've skipped over bits which aren't relevant):

Memorial Plaque and Scroll, Regulations regarding issue (45/Gen. No.1973) dated December 1919.

Para 6 Distribution of the plaque and scroll

Clause 14

i. The plaques will be distributed direct to the next of kin by the manager, Memorial Plaque Factory…..

ii. A copy of his majesty’s letter will be sent with each plaque

v. In each envelope will be enclosed a post-card form of receipt for signature on return by the recipient of the plaque

Clause 15

i. The scrolls in respect of officers will be sent by the Memorial Scroll Despatching Branch, Holborn Viaduct, EC2.

ii. The scrolls in respect of other ranks will be despatched to Officers i/c Records, who will be responsible for their distubution to the next of kin.

vi. Officers i/c records may, if they so desire, enclose with the scroll a form of receipt to be signed and returned by the recipient.

Because the plaques and scrolls were issued at different times, it is possible (and I've seen examples) where the next of kin has changed (due to death/divorce etc). So the plaque may be in a different branch of the family to the scroll. Remember the next-of-kin rule applied "at the time of issue."

[hmsk212]

Soldier Died also show that he died from wounds, perhaps your next step is to check the War Diary for 11th Battery RFA, this may show him as captured or missing in action. His death was probably reported by the Germans which may well be recorded somewhere.

Steve