Sketch of German Tank Captured at Villers-Bretonneux

[WhiteStarLine]

The enclosed drawing is freely downloadable from the AWM but I have not seen it referenced very much so here it is if anyone is interested. It comes from the 11th Brigade AIF unit war diary (May 1918 page 57) and is accompanied by notes and diagrams on how to site defences to defeat it and a sketch of the 17th Armoured Car Battalion's car with 2 Hotchkiss MGs.

[Tom W.]

Crew of 18, with up to six extra pioneers or runners, all crammed together into 130-degree heat, amidst the exhaust and gun fumes, while spall and splash are taking out chunks of your face.

Amazing.

[keithrouse]

There is plenty of information about the first use of tanks by us, but when did the Germans first deploy tanks.?

Keith.

[WhiteStarLine]

Keith, according to Tanks in The Great War, by Fuller, the A7V in the March 1918 offensive was the first time. Fifteen were manufactured by Daimler and each had a crew of 16.

[Tom W.]

Keith, according to Tanks in The Great War, by Fuller, the A7V in the March 1918 offensive was the first time. Fifteen were manufactured by Daimler and each had a crew of 16.

Actually it had a crew of 18: one commander, one driver, two mechanics, two main gunners, and 12 machine gunners. They would also take on as many as six extra pioneers and/or messenger runners. I have a photo of Tank 506 on March 21, 1918, and it has a crew of 24.

The crews were trained to dismount and fight as shock troops, using carbines, pistols, flamethrowers, and hand grenades to roll up trenches.

[truthergw]

Would it be fair to say then, that the Germans saw their tanks simply as armoured personnel carriers?

[Tom W.]

Would it be fair to say then, that the Germans saw their tanks simply as armoured personnel carriers?

No, because they were still used to achieve breakthrough. What happened was that after Detachment 1 demonstrated its skills to the Crown Prince, he recommended that the detachment be transferred to the training grounds of Assault Battalion Nr. 5 (Rohr) and the crews be trained as shock troops. This was done, and then it became official doctrine for tank crews to be both tankers and infantry assault squads.

The tanks had interior carbine racks and grenade boxes, and specially assigned flamethrower carriers accompanied the vehicles into battle on foot. The flamethrowers weren't carried in the tanks because it was deemed too dangerous. When the crew dismounted, they had their grenades and carbines, and they were handed the flamethrower by the poor guy whose job it was to carry it.

Here's a member of Tank 501 equipped as a shock trooper with grenade bags, pistol, and wire cutters on a lanyard around his neck.

[keithrouse]

Keith, according to Tanks in The Great War, by Fuller, the A7V in the March 1918 offensive was the first time. Fifteen were manufactured by Daimler and each had a crew of 16.

Thanks for the information.

Regards, Keith.

[Old Tom]

Tom (post 6) may have a point. The monster might not unreasonably be cited as the first APC. I do not know if the German army carried the idea forward to WW2, perhaps their half tracks? The Brits with turretless tanks did not seem to have accepted the idea to any great extent. Way off topic, sorry!

Old Tom

[centurion]

Keith, according to Tanks in The Great War, by Fuller, the A7V in the March 1918 offensive was the first time. Fifteen were manufactured by Daimler and each had a crew of 16.

He got it wrong. 22 were built, this included the prototype and the A7VU ( a version with all round tracks and sponsons). There were 20 A7V tanks that saw action. Crew numbers seem to have varied over time and the single female version had a different crew composition anyway. German tanks first went into action on March 21st 1918 with both A7Vs and Beutpanzers (refurbished captured British Mk IVs) involved. A7V development had been subject to procrastination as the High Command didn't believe in the concept until late in the war (Ludendorff never really got it). However, whilst Cambrai as a tank battle may be a myth to some, it certainly put the wind up some of the German generals and immediately a plan was proposed to build between 200 and 300 copies of the British Mk IV (with improved transmission to allow one man driving). This had to be abandoned for two reasons. 1] Germany was experiencing an engine famine and Ludendorff demanded that priority be given to big artillery tractors as he believed heavy artillery to be more important. The demands of the aircraft industry took the remainder (in the end there weren't enough to meet either the tractor or aircraft needs). 2] Germany didn't have the necessary alloying metals to produce the right kind of steel for thin rolled armour plate. A7V production was delayed and limited by the need to produce thin cast armour plate which was difficult to do (many had to be rejected). A number of A7V chassis were not used for tanks but for Uberlandwagons to carry shells for Ludendorff's heavy guns although a couple were converted into combined anti aircraft/anti tank gun carriers and the same number had huge trench digging equipment mounted on them. At least one of these was used at the front. After the armistice two (just possibly three) Uberlandwagen chassis were used to mount tank like bodies (but mild steel) and used in support of Freikorps operations. Most (including some of the tank chassis) were disassembled in a factory set up by Herr Volmer to produce agricultural tractors (you could get two tractors from one A7V) although a few were fitted out as excavators and sold to the construction industry. A small number of Volmer's tractors were converted into Self Propelled Guns for the post war German Army.

Because of the delay surrounding the A7V development the Germans never really seem to have got round to developing a coherent strategy for the use of tanks. In the end they were used mainly as a support to Storm Trooper attacks on Allied strong points.

The practice of carrying infantry in tanks was started by the British and some Mk Is went into action carrying snipers on board. No one seems to have really understood the purpose of this (including the snipers). Later in the war Mk V*s carried Vickers machine gun crewas and other infantry forward (although problems were encountered with heat and engine fumes).. The first attempt at a tracked APC was the 1918 British Mk IX infantry carrier. This suffered from excessive ground pressure and inadequate power and if used would have been prone to ditching.

[trajan]

... He got it wrong. ...

A highly impressive response! But please, please, can we have references to these facts - even if it is only personal (unpublished) research? I know that some (hi Dycer ) ain't that keen on such minutiae, but for many of the rest of us it would be useful to have the source! Especially if, like me, one is in the academic world with students doing theses on subjects related to WWI...

Trajan

[centurion]

A highly impressive response! But please, please, can we have references to these facts - even if it is only personal (unpublished) research? I know that some (hi Dycer ) ain't that keen on such minutiae, but for many of the rest of us it would be useful to have the source! Especially if, like me, one is in the academic world with students doing theses on subjects related to WWI...

Trajan

My reference list would be longer than the original post, however the numbers of A7Vs are well known and lists have been published in various works and forums including Landships and somewhere on this one. Steve Zaloga's Osprey on the A7V contains one too (as the late Ronald Searle's Nigel Molesworth would put it "as every skoolboy noes"). Captain Wegner ,who was on the A7V committee, after the warpublished a statement on German tank development which provides much of this. Ludendorff's attitude to tanks can be interpreted from various comments he made which have been published in many places (and I not even going to go through all of these). There are photos of A7V chassis being converted to tractors in Volmers factory. Vanderveen has published material on the artillery tractors. Any good work on British tanks will tell you about the Mk IX. Enough already! I thought I was doing a posting on a forum not an academic dissertation - I've done a lot of reading and collating myself.

[trajan]

Ta for the response! Not being tanker-minded (although I do seem to follow tanker threads more than any others [grandad apparently a tanker]), it is just nice to know where to go for the 'further reading'. Full academic dissertation not needed, although I'll bet a pound to a penny you could do that!

Trajan

[Tom W.]

I was originally going to include this in my book about German assault troops, but it got replaced by a different image. So I'll post it here!