Muerrisch Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 Looking through old MILMOD cuttings, the Fostens muse on the subject of the khaki Brodrick, and wonder if it ever existed. Does the team have any evidence, photos etc, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 I found this hansard question and answer which makes mention of a canvas cover, no idea what cap they are really talking about though. Military Caps. HC Deb 16 December 1908 vol 198 c18461846 §MR. COURTENAY WARNER I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will consider the desirability of withdrawing from issue the remainder of the obsolete-pattern cap with canvas, cover for infantry Special Reserves, improperly called the "Brodrick" by soldiers, having regard to its unpopularity with the men and the impossibility of making it look smart. §MR. HALDANE The cap in question is not confined to the Special Reserve and is still worn by certain Line units. To withdraw the remainder of these caps and replace them by those of the latest pattern would entail a heavy expenditure, which I think my hon. friend will agree with me could hardly be justified. § In reply to a supplementary Question. §MR. HALDANE said some Line units would wear the cap though it might not be the most becoming for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 9 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2012 I found this hansard question and answer which makes mention of a canvas cover, no idea what cap they are really talking about though. Military Caps. HC Deb 16 December 1908 vol 198 c18461846 §MR. COURTENAY WARNER I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will consider the desirability of withdrawing from issue the remainder of the obsolete-pattern cap with canvas, cover for infantry Special Reserves, improperly called the "Brodrick" by soldiers, having regard to its unpopularity with the men and the impossibility of making it look smart. §MR. HALDANE The cap in question is not confined to the Special Reserve and is still worn by certain Line units. To withdraw the remainder of these caps and replace them by those of the latest pattern would entail a heavy expenditure, which I think my hon. friend will agree with me could hardly be justified. § In reply to a supplementary Question. §MR. HALDANE said some Line units would wear the cap though it might not be the most becoming for them. Many thanks, wish I had thought of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wings5797 Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 Hello Grumpy, In spite of my years of admiration for these two experts in the military uniform field, I think that they may have got this one wrong. The Brodrick Cap was introduced around 1902 named after the then Secretary of State and was quoted as being "ill famed". The more familiar peaked forage cap replaced it 1905. So it was very short lived. In all of the Photographs I have seen, mainly of Guards regiments, show only navy blue caps with regimental variations. These are either coloured or diced cap bands or regimental facing colour behind the cap badge.From pictures I have seen, even in fatigue dress, it is still the navy blue cap that is used Like you I would be interested to see a khaki brodrick but I think they will be as rare as chickens teeth. Regards Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 9 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2012 Hello Grumpy, In spite or my years of admiration for these two experts in the military uniform field, I think that they may have got this one wrong. The Brodrick Cap was introduced around 1902 named after the then Secretary of State and was quoted as being "ill famed". The more familiar peaked forage cap replaced it 1905. So it was very short lived. In all of the Photographs I have seen, mainly of Guards regiments, show only navy blue caps with regimental variations. These are either coloured or diced cap bands or regimental facing colour behind the cap badge.From pictures I have seen, even in fatigue dress, it is still the navy blue cap that is used Like you I would be interested to see a khaki brodrick but I think they will be as rare as chickens teeth. Regards Keith to be fair, the Fostens only wonder out loud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
widavies Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 to be fair, the Fostens only wonder out loud! Does anybody have a picture of this cap, it would be interesting to see what the offending piece of kit looked like. Regards Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 It looks like the German cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wings5797 Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 The chap in the centre standing at the back is in the brodrick. Regards Keith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
widavies Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 The chap in the centre standing at the back is in the brodrick. Regards Keith Hi Keith, Thanks, its so much easier to understand the jargon when one actually see's a picture of it. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 Here is the forage cap in the flesh. RFA issued and dated to 1903 Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 9 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2012 Hi Keith, Thanks, its so much easier to understand the jargon when one actually see's a picture of it. Will These are collectively "the staff sergeants and warrant officers" with the exception of the Brodrick man ....... they are sworded. Here is the forage cap in the flesh. RFA issued and dated to 1903 Joe Sweeney any sniff of a khaki version, Joe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 Grumpy, Never really did a study of these caps but I can't recall the RACD pattern books nor PVCN ever calling out a Khaki version. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 9 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2012 Grumpy, Never really did a study of these caps but I can't recall the RACD pattern books nor PVCN ever calling out a Khaki version. Joe Sweeney Thank you Joe ........ only a period photo might convince, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 January , 2012 Share Posted 9 January , 2012 This shows a Norfolk Regiment version of the later pattern with facing colour patch. I think that the 'sightings' of khaki versions were merely fleeting images of those with well fitted covers and perhaps worn in the field on annual training camps that were common for both Regulars and Territorials. The other photo shows a Royal Engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 January , 2012 Share Posted 10 January , 2012 I think this is the cover for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 10 January , 2012 Share Posted 10 January , 2012 Frogsmile, That is the cover for the WSD cap, and continued issue with tht Soft SD cap, and introduced with pattern 8180/1914, 22 December 1914. A Mike Chappel painting shows and identifies that cover as a Brodrick cover which it is not. There was no specific intended general issue cover for the Brodrick, but there were covers issued for Drivers etc which could be used in a pinch. I actually have a sealed pattern cover some where which fits nice on the Brodrick and SD cap crown but meant for drivers. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 January , 2012 Share Posted 10 January , 2012 Frogsmile, That is the cover for the WSD cap, and continued issue with tht Soft SD cap, and introduced with pattern 8180/1914, 22 December 1914. A Mike Chappel painting shows and identifies that cover as a Brodrick cover which it is not. There was no specific intended general issue cover for the Brodrick, but there were covers issued for Drivers etc which could be used in a pinch. I actually have a sealed pattern cover some where which fits nice on the Brodrick and SD cap crown but meant for drivers. Joe Sweeney Thanks Joe, that is interesting, as there were covers for the Field Service Cap before it, which I thought extremely odd looking and there are several examples of them in various museums. I did wonder whether it really was a Brodrick cover, as there is clearly a peak section which the Brodrick did not require. Perhaps some covers were made up locally, but I personally have never seen any photos with covers being worn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 10 January , 2012 Share Posted 10 January , 2012 The chap in the centre standing at the back is in the brodrick. Regards Keith Illustration of Officers & senior NCO's of 4th Bn, NF first appeared in the regimental journal(St.Georges Gazette) in 1904 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 10 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2012 Illustration of Officers & senior NCO's of 4th Bn, NF first appeared in the regimental journal(St.Georges Gazette) in 1904 Graham, I cannot quite read the rank/appointment of Mr Brodrick! Can you help please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 10 January , 2012 Share Posted 10 January , 2012 Graham, I cannot quite read the rank/appointment of Mr Brodrick! Can you help please? Armourer Sgt(Ar-Sgt) Hunter, AOC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 10 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2012 Armourer Sgt(Ar-Sgt) Hunter, AOC thankee kindly, sir! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntanner Posted 11 January , 2012 Share Posted 11 January , 2012 Minor anecdote: I recall my grandfather (see the avatar) remembering thowing his over the side of the boat leaving the quay when he left Ireland in 1907. My father threw his solar topee (RAF) overboard when leaving Freetown 1942. Photo also in Middlebrook (The First Day of the Somme) of CSM Percy Chappell, dated 1909, wearing his Broderick. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robins2 Posted 12 January , 2012 Share Posted 12 January , 2012 are these chaps wearing Brodericks?? Thank you Joe ........ only a period photo might convince, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 12 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2012 are these chaps wearing Brodericks?? Yes, but doesn't help much with dating because RM retained the BRODRICK [nb spelling!] long after remainder of armed forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 6 February , 2012 Share Posted 6 February , 2012 Grumpy, In doing one of my rare forays into 1903 and before pattern records I came across: Pattern 5862/1903 4 May 1903----Covers Drab for NP Forage Cap. A few months later an experimental verrsion was also pattern sealed. NP = "New Pattern" which means "Brodrick". Have not found any obsolescence info nor any reference in the 1907 PVCN which still list the Brodrick (albeit obsolete). Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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