Warrant Officer Class III

[auchonvillerssomme]

At the moment I am reading the history of the KOYLI during WW2, it mentions the short lived rank of WO Class 3. I know there were several men of that rank during WW1, can anyone tell me what badge they would have worn?

[Tom A McCluskey]

Mick,

For the short period of time that this rank existed (though not fully abrogated):

WOIII (Platoon Sergeant Major):- Crown

WOII:- Crown surrounded by a wreath

WOI:- Royal Arms

Aye,

Tom McC

[auchonvillerssomme]

Thank you Tom, I haven't found more than a handful during WW1 so I wonder why it was brought back at the start of WW2, especially with the smaller Bn sizes, although reading the comments it was unsuccesful and didn't last long.

[Deerhunter]

What would the difference in the responsibilities of the posts of WOII and WOIII be?

You mention Platoon Sergeant Major for the WOIII - would this mean that the WOII rank would be have a "one-up" SSM/CSM role, or would it be that the WOII would be the more senior "RQMS-type" appointment?

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi

A WOIII Platoon Sergeant Major commanded the platoon in place of a subaltern, an easy fix for a shortage of young gentlemen.

The role of the WOII CSM was unchanged.

regards

John

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Hi

A WOIII Platoon Sergeant Major commanded the platoon in place of a subaltern, an easy fix for a shortage of young gentlemen.

The role of the WOII CSM was unchanged.

regards

John

[FROGSMILE]

At the moment I am reading the history of the KOYLI during WW2, it mentions the short lived rank of WO Class 3. I know there were several men of that rank during WW1, can anyone tell me what badge they would have worn?

I have never found reference to a WOIII before WW2, so your suggestion there were some in WW1 is interesting. As John has said, the rank was an expedient attempt to make up for a shortage of junior officers in the infantry during WW2 (largely because RAF Bomber Command had consumed much of the suitable material), a situation that was in part later resolved by commissioning educated young Canadian men into British infantry regiments.

WW1 was a compacted period of evolution for senior NCO grades in the British Army and by 1918 they had become largely as we know them today. At the beginning of the war, in 1914, the picture was very different and each of the Arms, Services and Departments tended to use their own terminology for a myriad of appointments, which made parity/equivalence difficult to understand for the uninitiated. There were in effect three grades of senior NCO, 'Sergeants' (who were the lowest substantive grade) three classes of 'Staff Sergeant' (at that time a generic term rather like Staff Officer, and encompassing specialists and appointments at Battalion/Regiment level) and 'Warrant Officers' (of whom there were usually few in each unit).

In 1915 all the First Class Staff Serjeants and most (but not all) of the Second Class became a new grade of Warrant Officer, thus constituting a second level and elevating the original Warrant Officers to a new first class. The rump of Second Class Staff Sergeants remained and the Third Class Staff Sergeants were either elevated one level, or became plain Sergeants, albeit that they continued to hold the status of Battalion/Regimental level specialists within the units. This resulted in WOI, WOII, Staff Sergeant and Sergeant as four distinct levels that could be easily understood across all the Arms, Services and Departments, irrespective of the diverse titles used to describe their 'appointments'.

By 1918 the insignia had changed to make these alterations more clear. Member Grumpy has produced some very good charts illustrating these changes that you can find via the Search at the top of the page.

[Deerhunter]

Very informed and informative summary, many thanks.

[Glenn J]

A couple of direct quotes from British Army Uniforms & Insignia of World War Two by Brian L Davis:

"On 1 October 1938 the War Office announced that about 1,000 non-commissioned officers were to be promoted. They were to form the first batch of selections for the new rank of Warrant Officer Class III. They were selected on the basis of being men of special character and ability and were to be promoted to hold command of platoons and equivalent sub-units hitherto commanded by subaltern officers.

The Warrant Officers Class III were all to be commanders, to be trained in officers' duties in tactics, in the use of weapons and in administration etc. Warrant Officers Class III were introduced into the Cavalry of the Line, Royal Artillery, Foot Guards, Infantry of the Line and Royal Tank Corps in all units. In the Royal Signals they were introduced into certain units only, and searchlight units, which until 1939 were coming under the Royal Artillery, were also to have them."

ACI 804 of 1940 discontinued any further promotions to the rank of Warrant Officer Class III.

Regards

Glenn

[FROGSMILE]

A couple of direct quotes from British Army Uniforms & Insignia of World War Two by Brian L Davis:

"On 1 October 1938 the War Office announced that about 1,000 non-commissioned officers were to be promoted. They were to form the first batch of selections for the new rank of Warrant Officer Class III. They were selected on the basis of being men of special character and ability and were to be promoted to hold command of platoons and equivalent sub-units hitherto commanded by subaltern officers.

The Warrant Officers Class III were all to be commanders, to be trained in officers' duties in tactics, in the use of weapons and in administration etc. Warrant Officers Class III were introduced into the Cavalry of the Line, Royal Artillery, Foot Guards, Infantry of the Line and Royal Tank Corps in all units. In the Royal Signals they were introduced into certain units only, and searchlight units, which until 1939 were coming under the Royal Artillery, were also to have them."

ACI 804 of 1940 discontinued any further promotions to the rank of Warrant Officer Class III.

Regards

Glenn

I recall that WEF from that ACI in 1940 the existing WOIII were allowed to continue in their ranks until they either, retired, or were promoted to WOII.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Glenn, I don't think there were any WOIII's in WW1, it is very unlike me but I accepted what someone had told me, and doing my own checks I haven't found any evidence.

FROGSMILE I would say you are right, there is a MSM issued to a WOIII in 1946.

[nigelfe]

For late 1930s the WO3 rank was an instigation of the Secretary of State for War, Hore-Belisha.

In 1939 searchlights were an RE responsibility, they were transferred to RA in 1940 (by changing the capbadge of the units).

[Glenn J]

Glenn, I don't think there were any WOIII's in WW1

Agreed. And further to FROGSMILE's last post, this also from Davis:

The ACI 804 placed the rank in "suspension"; holders of the rank were, however, allowed to retain their rank until they were promoted, were reduced or left the service.

Regards

Glenn

[David Free]

My wife’s grandfather was A WOIII , killed at Dunkirk. I’m not to good with technology, and I’m not sure if this will post where I hope it will , I’ve noticed one person as described the badge and I’m wondering if that person as a photo of the badge.  Thank you 

[kenf48]

@David Free

I’ve approved your request but as noted above the rank was established in WW2 it is therefore outside the remit of this forum which is concerned with WW1.

@Tom A McCluskey who described the badge has not visited the GWF for many years

[David Free]

Thank you 

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, David Free said:

Thank you 

Here is a photo of the WO3 badge from WW2.  It was created by a simple tweak of the regulations.  Both previously and subsequently there were two badges for WO2, one for sub unit level warrant officers undertaking general military duties, and one for all those warrant officers at the same level undertaking more specialised, technical duties.  The latter was Senior by appointment and usually paid more.  The first had the badge of a plain, sovereign’s crown, and the second a badge of the same crown but surrounded by a Laurel wreath.

The WO3 rank badge was created simply by adopting the plain crown, and then all of the WO2 regardless of their role, whether general, or technical duties, all adopted the crown within a Laurel wreath. 

Edited 26 March by FROGSMILE