Anneca Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 The last that was seen of Rifleman William (Wallace) Greer, born 1894, Serial No. 12847, 8th Batt. Royal Irish Rifles (East Belfast), 107th Brigade, 36th (Ulster) Division, was when he was carrying a wounded Officer back from the lines. A communication from the Ministry of Defence told his family he was killed in action in France and Flanders on 2 July 1916, at the Battle of the Somme, and is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial. His rank was Corporal but was reduced to Private for misconduct in Time of War, 28 October 1915. He was awarded the Star on 4 October 1915 which is missing. He was also awarded the British War and the Victory Medals. His family, then living in Shaftesbury Avenue, Belfast, were so angry and annoyed to hear of their Son's demotion to Private they returned the War and Victory medals to theWar Office. It may have been a combination of their upset at his demotion and extreme sadness at his death that caused them to return the medals. Obviously William (Wallace's) immediate family are now deceased but he was the Uncle of my Brother-in-Law who is now the closest surviving relative. Another interesting point is that 'William' was not his correct name, which is probably why after years of searching, his family were never able to obtain any information about him or how he died. His correct name was Wallace Greer but the Ministry of Defence had no record of a Wallace Greer. Many years ago my Brother-in-Law travelled to London to research at Kew and found that Wallace and William were the same person but the Army had registered his name as William on some records. With so many knowledgeable members on the Forum I was hoping that someone might have answers to some of my questions about William/Wallace, for which I would be very grateful. 1. Would WW1 medals returned by the family to the War Office/Ministry of Defence shortly after the end of the war, be retained and stored by the Authorities? 2. If this is the case, is there a process by which a relative of the medal holder can make application for the return of medals previously returned by the immediate family, now all deceased? 3. If so, what is the process for this and what would be the chance of success? 4. If the returned medals were not retained by the Authorities, would it be possible to have them re-issued? 5. Is there anywhere I can research the reason for his demotion? (Neither my Brother-in-Law or myself have his service record and it would be great to have answers. I would like to think that carrying a wounded Officer back from the lines might be enough to restore his reputation, especially if the Officer had survived.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 Hi Anneca, If his medals were returned by the family then it is almost certain that they will have been kept for a short while (a few years) and then destroyed or recycled, I think that this was also the course followed with unclaimed medals. I am not sure if it is still possible to claim WW1 medals--I seem to think that this was stopped some years ago. I am sure that someone with more knowledge regarding this will be along soon. Good Luck. Regards, Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipperary Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 It is no longer possible to claim WW1 medals. I think the unclaimed and returned medals were returned to the mint for recycling after a period of time.john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 Anneca, John has confirmed some of what I thought, but you could always buy copy medals via ebay or it is also possible to buy original unnamed medals through dealers such as Dixons Medals, etc. Just Google Dixons Medals and see what they have. If you need anymore assistance please ask Regards, Robert P.S. I am sure that a Royal Irish Rifles expert may be able to answer some of your questions regarding his demotion, etc., possibly from war diaries or the regimental history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 Kings Regulations 1923 Para 992 (a.) An officer receiving medals for issue will arrange for their safe custody. (b.) When medals are presented to individual’s receipts will be obtained from the recipients. Medals which, at the end of one year, still remain unclaimed, will be sent to the Secretary, The War Office." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 I wonder what the misconduct was, it must have been quit serious for the MIC to be annotated as such. Reduced for misconduct in T of W 28/10/15. Which I am presuming is Theatre of War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 Er, I sense a little anger here..... The CWGC entry (as William) notes he was the son of Mary Greer, implying that Mr Greer was deceased. The additional information was supplied by the family, so they had an opportunity to amend his Name to Wallace, had they so wished. His reduction to Private from Corporal (must have been severe to lose 2 stripes). If in front of his men, it would have been impossible to ignore, and as a non commissioned officer, no doubt an example had to be set. As to what it actually was, unless someone finds his Service or Pension records, we are unlikely to know. I doubt it was done without good cause. The rank reduction on Wallace Greers Medal Index Card was in October 1915, less than 4 weeks after arriving in France on 4th October 1915. The award of medals took place after the end of the War in 1918. Soldiers Died in the Great War shows him as William, too.. Name: William Greer. Birth Place: Lurgan, Co. Armagh. Death Date: 2 Jul 1916 Death Location: France & Flanders. Enlistment Location: Belfast. Rank: Rifleman Regiment: Royal Irish Rifles. Battalion: 8th Battalion. Number: 12847 Type of Casualty: Killed in action. Theatre of War: Western European Theatre. He's also recorded as William in the Ireland, Casualties of WW1 Register, with his number shown as 12849 You imply that the family were incensed that he was demoted in 1915 and chose to return the BW and V medals, yet retained the 1914-15 Star, which has since been mislaid. That's a long time to be angry, and nothing seems to have been disclosed about it by him on his letters home. There are many more expert than I, but I think the likelihood of having his medals found/returned is highly unlikely. Those returned were probably melted down as they had each mans details incised on the rim. Your best option would be to obtain unmarked replicas, if you wish to display/parade them. Sorry, but I think there is little point in being so upset this long after the events. Just continue to cherish his memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 (edited) Greer Edited 28 December , 2011 by Alan Curragh MIC image removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scrappydoo Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 Hi Annica it is possible to get copy medals they are the same as the original and you can have them enscribed as per originals I know this as I have just bought my wifes grandads medals for her , I rang imjin barracks medals office and they said when they need to have medals struck they go to Worcestershire Medal Service Ltd - Medallists to Her Majesty Queen my wifes grandads were the trio and all three including engraving was £118.50 inc ins post mounted on swing bar hope this helps Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 You can have them engraved with the soldiers details but neither the naming nor the medals will be the same as issued, so it would be a matter of choice, they will never be the medals issued and returned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Owl Posted 28 December , 2011 Share Posted 28 December , 2011 You can have them engraved with the soldiers details but neither the naming nor the medals will be the same as issued, so it would be a matter of choice, they will never be the medals issued and returned. I agree entirely, but if the family are desperate to have a representation of their relatives medals-- then they have little choice!! Personally I would go for unnamed originals, which are still obtainable at a price or even a named trio to another man would I suppose suffice? After all they can never be claimed to be his(Wallace/William Greer's) original medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 28 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2011 Thank you Kevin for such a comprehensive reply which I appreciate. Firstly I must say there is no anger at all with the family remaining today. It was his immediate family, now all deceased, who were angry and upset enough to return the medals and as I said this was probably due to the combination of the news of his death and of his demotion. Yes, I quite agree it must have been a severe punishment to lose 2 stripes and that it must have been done with good cause. My Brother-in Law certainly feels no anger about his Uncle's demotion but, like myself, would be interested to find the reason. In fact he is trying to understand why, all those years ago, his Grandmother returned the medals, and at the same time find out more about his Uncle Wallace and find his medals. It is not a question of being upset all this time but rather a question of finding out what happened. Thank you so much for taking time to reply to this post and for the information you kindly supplied. Best wishes, Anne quote name='KevinBattle' timestamp='1325087673' post='1686530'] Er, I sense a little anger here..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 28 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 December , 2011 Thank you so much Robert, John, Eric and Auchonvillersomme for replying and giving me information on the medals. I will certainly follow up on your advice. Thank you too for the attached image which I was so surprised and delighted to receive. I realize, stupidly now, that the information on the 'Time of War' I was given should obviously mean 'Theatre of War' which I should have known. Thank you again for taking the time to get back to me. Best wishes, Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 29 December , 2011 Share Posted 29 December , 2011 Anne I hope you got a copy of the medal index card before it was removed, I took the chance posting it and I get the feeling it was left slightly longer than I expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 29 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 December , 2011 Thanks Eric - I had a look at your link and it looks very interesting. Anne Hi Annica it is possible to get copy medals they are the same as the original and you can have them enscribed as per originals I know this as I have just bought my wifes grandads medals for her , I rang imjin barracks medals office and they said when they need to have medals struck they go to Worcestershire Medal Service Ltd - Medallists to Her Majesty Queen my wifes grandads were the trio and all three including engraving was £118.50 inc ins post mounted on swing bar hope this helps Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 29 December , 2011 Admin Share Posted 29 December , 2011 As you say the family did not return the 14-15 Star it seems odd they should return the other medals in 'anger'. In addition to what has already been said:- the note on the card that they were returned i.e. retd (992 K.R. 1923) followed by 8362 fAdt (i.e. for adjustment) suggests the family were not happy with the inscription on the medal(s) and returned them for alteration. Many medals were returned for this reason. (Incidentally, you can download a copy of the card from TNA) There is what appears to be a later note on the card (in blue rather than red ink) that says 'X Pte' (with the reference X repeated alongside the Victory medal and the BWM i.e. 'ditto'. The X which is simply a manuscript asterisk which refers to the reason why the medals are inscribed to 'Private'. i.e. the misconduct shortly after arriving in France, I dare say it was exemplary as mentioned above, it may not have been serious. [it's possible to speculate it occurred at the IBD as at that time soldiers received additional training before going to the front and the 'Canaries' or drill instructors at Etaples had a fearsome reputation.] The family may have been annoyed when told the inscription was correct (we already have two regimental Numbers; two first names and three titles (i.e.Corporal, Private and Rifleman) so it's easy to see how mistakes were possible. In all probability the medals were despatched at different times. The Star was authorised in 1918 the other two a year later and sent out around 1920-22. It's possible the inscriptions did not match as the card suggests the 14-15 Star was issued to a Cpl. Given his demotion occurred eight months before his death it would be surprising if the family did not know about it unless of course he chose not to tell them which is a strong possibility. The family would also have been issued with a death plaque and commemorative scroll so for completeness you may like to consider replicas of these items when mounting a display. A quick Google found this replica on flea-bay http://www.ebay.co.u...e-/120821517020 As for your question 4 what you've been told is correct and the definitive answer is on the MoD website, i.e. FAQ Can I obtain replacement World War I medals? The MoD Medal Office is not able to provide replacement World War I medals. You may wish to purchase replicas or original named medals from a reputable medal dealer or a private medal company. http://www.mod.uk/De...s/MedalFaqs.htm Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob elliott Posted 29 December , 2011 Share Posted 29 December , 2011 Anneca, The 107th Brigade were having a bit of a discipline problem when they got to France. The number of Courts martials was greater than that of 108th and 109th Brigades. In October 1915 the 107th had 13 the 108th had 4 the 109th had 2 [source T.Bowman -'Irish regiments in the Great War-discipline and morale' good book! The 8th RIR had lost its C.O. and two Officers, deemed as not suitable so overall things were not good. This culminated later in the executions of men from this Brigade. It is probable examples were being set to try to enforce discipline, which eventually did improve. If one of the two men from October is Wallace/william then this record may exist or reference to it. An offence in one Btn would deem a charge and in another nothing. It was down to individual Officers and the way they wanted to deal with things. It would appear the medals were sent away for alteration and one can only assume that they were returned to the family at some point later. The 107th Brigade fought well on the 1st July and were a credit to Belfast, that's what we remember. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 1 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Kevin, I have further studied your earlier post, and wondered about your opinion on the two numbers. Would you think the 'William' who appears in the Ireland Casualties of WW1 Register with the number of 12849 is the same 'William', only with the wrong number? Regarding the now deceased family members who returned the BW and V medals and retained the 1914-15 Star, I have no evidence that they ever received the Star, retained it or mislaid it - another mystery. I suppose it is possible the family sent back the medals for correction of inscription, either William to Wallace or Private to Corporal if Wallace hadn't told them he had been demoted. Thank you once again for the information. Anne You imply that the family were incensed that he was demoted in 1915 and chose to return the BW and V medals, yet retained the 1914-15 Star, which has since been mislaid. That's a long time to be angry, and nothing seems to have been disclosed about it by him on his letters home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 1 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Ken - Many thanks for your input and for the explanation of the MIC. Re. the death plaque and commemorative scroll, I checked out your link which was interesting, as was your link to the MoD FAQ. Would you have any suggestions as to how I can find details of the demotion record? Again, many thanks for the information. Anne . The family would also have been issued with a death plaque and commemorative scroll so for completeness you may like to consider replicas of these items when mounting a display. A quick Google found this replica on flea-bay http://www.ebay.co.u...e-/120821517020 As for your question 4 what you've been told is correct and the definitive answer is on the MoD website, i.e. FAQ Can I obtain replacement World War I medals? The MoD Medal Office is not able to provide replacement World War I medals. You may wish to purchase replicas or original named medals from a reputable medal dealer or a private medal company. http://www.mod.uk/De...s/MedalFaqs.htm Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 1 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Rob - Thank you for the picture you have painted of the 107th Brigade at that time. I was amazed to see they had 13 CM's in October 1915 in comparison with only 4 and 2 for the 108th and 109th Brigades. With the loss of the CO and 2 Officers of the 8th RIR, those men must have had a really hard time but as you say they were a credit, I think not only to Belfast but to themselves. I appreciate your input and the knowledge you have shared. Anne Anneca, The 107th Brigade were having a bit of a discipline problem when they got to France. The number of Courts martials was greater than that of 108th and 109th Brigades. In October 1915 the 107th had 13 the 108th had 4 the 109th had 2 [source T.Bowman -'Irish regiments in the Great War-discipline and morale' good book! The 8th RIR had lost its C.O. and two Officers, deemed as not suitable so overall things were not good. This culminated later in the executions of men from this Brigade. It is probable examples were being set to try to enforce discipline, which eventually did improve. If one of the two men from October is Wallace/william then this record may exist or reference to it. An offence in one Btn would deem a charge and in another nothing. It was down to individual Officers and the way they wanted to deal with things. It would appear the medals were sent away for alteration and one can only assume that they were returned to the family at some point later. The 107th Brigade fought well on the 1st July and were a credit to Belfast, that's what we remember. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 1 January , 2012 Share Posted 1 January , 2012 Hi, anneca and HNY I can only find one Medal Index Card for 12847 therefore I think there is a mistake, although I have no certainty of that. I don't know too much about Irish geography, but the details seem to give different locations, which could infer two different men, unless these are closely adjacent locations. If they are close, then there is probably a mistake in the number, and it should be 12847. I'd also be intrigued to know who was 12848! Was he another Greer? Perhaps some Pal with expert knowledge of the issuance of Regimental Numbers in the 8th Battalion will come forward to help clear away any confusion! It's certainly an unusual twist to the "usual" enquiries we have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 2 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2012 Hi Kevin and a HNY to you. Mary Greer had another son whose name was James, born 1887, Wallace's older brother, also killed in action in Gallipoli on 23 August 1915 but his number was 59804. He was in the Postal Section, Royal Engineers. Since his number is not even similar to Wallace's I can't imagine they could get mixed up. Wallace was born in Lurgan, Co Armagh in 1894. Yes like yourself I am now intrigued about 12848. Now that I have answers/opinions/advice about the medals, perhaps what is yet unknown about the demotion and the number might become clear at some time in the future (I hope). Thank you again for trying to help. Best wishes, Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 2 January , 2012 Admin Share Posted 2 January , 2012 Hi again the reason for the demotion would have been recorded on his service record which unfortunately we do not have. It is unlikely it would have been published anywhere and even on the record may have been shown as 'misconduct in a time of war' as on the mic. Misconduct could result in a discharge under Kings Regulations 392 (xi) but in this instance the actual offence for which he was punished (and amounted to misconduct) is not defined but could include offences such as drunkeness; disobeying orders; late on parade etc. I think the 'time of war' is significant in both legal and practical terms and meant to show they were now about a serious business and therefore the penalty was more severe. There are some records at TNA see http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/firstworldwar/service_records/courts_martial.htm It's likely it was a Regimental CM or even simply a COs punishment which as the TNA page notes may not have been forwarded. As for the number I think this is almost certainly a transcription error in the Ireland Memorial Book (one reason the 7 often has a bar across the upright). Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anneca Posted 3 January , 2012 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2012 Hi Ken Many thanks for the link, for your thoughts on the subject and most welcome information. Like Kevin you think the number is a transcription error or a mistake. I think this is the most likely cause. I hadn't thought the TNA would have information on C.M.s - very interesting stuff. Thanks again and Happy New Year. Anne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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