Tanks at St Julien

[Chris_Baker]

Posted on behalf of Simon Bull:

The attached three photographs are all believed to have been taken in the area of Ypres by my grandfather Arthur Harold James Lincoln MM and Bar. The photograph showing ?two/three? wrecked tanks, with some wreckage on either side of the road, is inscribed on the reverse "8th Coy. C Batt. Tanks on main road St. Jean to Poelcappelle near St. Julien".

One of the other photographs shows signs to Ypres and Bruges, and I have assumed (hopefully without jumping to too much of a conclusion) the other photograph to have been taken in the same locality.

They are suspected to have been taken in the 1920's or possibly very early 1930's by my grandfather on a visit to the battlefields. He was in 8th Company C Battalion of the Tank Corps, and fought in the tanks at the Battle

of Arras (where he won his MM and Bar). He may have been in tanks at the Battle of the Somme (although I think that this is unlikely).

I believe he also fought at Ypres and Cambrai in tanks. His War ended when he was taken prisoner in the Whippet engagement at Cachy on 24/4/1918.

I would be grateful for any information which anyone can give me about exactly where (obviously I know that they were taken in the area of St. Julien on the St. Jean to Poelcappelle road, but I would like to know exactly where on that road they were) and when these photographs may have been taken, and, in particular, which number tanks they show. I appreciate that the photographs were probably taken on the road between St. Jean and Poelcappelle at St. Julien (given the inscription quoted), but can anyone be very specific about where these wrecked tanks were? I have not yet completed looking at the relevant War Diaries, but I have been having some difficulty finding when the tanks of C Battalion might have passed along this road, so any assistance on that point would be appreciated. It seems unlikely that he would be mistaken about where his own company's tanks were knocked out.

[ianw]

Right on a significant road junction which should narrow things down a lot. Can the place names on the sign be read on the original photo ?

[AOK4]

Hello,

I've got a German trench map here with British tank wrecks on it and I can see 8 wrecks within 500 metres of St. Julien. 6 are within 500 metres of Keerselare (1 of which is halfway St. Julien and Keerselare).

I don't know if all wrecks are designated.

Regards,

Jan

[Paul Reed]

I am sure I have some info and further photos on this... will have a look and post later.

[Paul Reed]

Found a couple of photos; maybe the same tank(s)?:

[Guest Simon Bull]

Thanks, gents, for information so far.

Ian - the original photographs are very poor and quite small, scanning them has made things rather more visible if anything.

Simon Bull

[Guest Simon Bull]

Paul

I think your photos arrived whilst i was composing my recent message. Have you any idea when they were taken?

Regards

Simon Bull

[Paul Reed]

Simon - they are both postcards from the 1919-20 period. There were a lot taken of the remaining tanks on the Ypres battlefield at this time.

[Chris_Baker]

This is the best-defined closeup of the sign boards that I can get...

Does the left-top sign end in ...hast, or ...nast?

[ianw]

Could the bottom place name segment be the "UDE" of Dixmude and the top one be the ending of Houthulst. In which case the hidden name could be Langemark or possibly Boesinghe with the photo being taken nearer to Poelkappelle.

Interesting potential for field study during the April visit - preferably before any drinks which would end any clever stuff stone dead !

[Jacky Platteeuw]

I think Ian is right.

This could mean that the photos were taken from the village of Poelkapelle towards St. Julien and the crossrad could very well be the crossroad in Poelkapelle were the Memorial of Guynemer is nowadays. As far as the period is concerned I should think early to mid 20ies because the second one has clearly a house who is already completely rebuild.

Jacky

[ianw]

If multiple pictures of the same tanks can be assembled, it may be possible to confirm the topography of the location by direct observation by a visit to the site. Of course, its very close to the Forum Dinner location.

[Robert Missinne]

Pictures 2+3 posted by Chris/Simon and picture 2 posted by Paul are showing the same tank.

It was the most advanced tank that reached Poelkapelle. The tank sunk in the mud on the crossroads where is now the Guynemer memorial (in fact just in front of the café "De Zwaan").

After WWI it was placed as a memorial on the Poelkapelle Marketplace before café "Het Gouden hoofd", for the British visitors "Bristol Bar".

In 1941, the tank was taken away by the German Army.

More pictures of St Julien and tanks can be found on http://web.wanadoo.be/juliaan/ Click on 'Dorpsgezichten' (site of Freddy Quaghebeur)

Robert Missinne

St Julien

The Great War in Flanders Fields

[ianw]

The ditched tank on the left hand side of the road that seems to be known as the "Druid". I wonder whether this was its operational name or a name given to it when it became a static relic ?

It appears to be positioned on a slight rise going up towards a right hand bend. Interesting to see the considerable destruction of the trees that line the road from the photos on the Juliann website to the photo posted by Paul.

[Robert Missinne]

I have some photos showing the Druid after the war.

There were several trees on both sides of the road on that location and the tank on his side (on the photo posted by Paul) cannot be seen on the opposite site of the road, so I think that tank '*32' is not the Druid.

Robert Missinne

St Julien

[Geoff Parker]

Simon

I believe the last two photos of yours are same tank as is the second photo from Paul. I have located another photo of this tank in the Michelin guide which I will email to you.

At the Battle of Pilckem Ridge 31Jul-2Aug '17, tanks from six Battalions were allocated as follows

G Bn to XVIII Corps

A & B Bn's to II Corps

C & F Bn's to XIX Corps

D Bn in 5th Army reserve.

If C Bn supported 55th Inf Div they would certainly have advanced up the St. Jean/ Poelcappelle road. However this road crosses the boundry into XVIII Corps area of operations halfway between Wieltji and St. Julian, so I'm not sure where the original photos were taken.

8 tanks from C Bn were again in action on 22nd Aug, operating with 15th and 61st Divs of XIX Corps in the fighting south of Fortuin.

C Bn does not appear to have participated in any of the fighting around St. Julian and did not see action again until 20th September during the Battle of the Menin Road Ridge.

Hope this of help

Geoff

[Guest Simon Bull]

Just a quick note to say thank you to all who have replied for all the help. I am under a great deal of pressure of work at present and have not yet had time to consider all that has been said. Hope to find time to consider it more fully in the next few days.

Simon Bull

[Hedley Malloch]

Is it possible some bits of the tanks might still be in situ? I know that on the Cambrai battlefield it is still possible to see remnants of tanks on the sites they were abandoned.

[Graham-McAdam]

We'd all love to see a list of where these are, Hedley.

[Simon Furnell]

Hello Simon.

These are some amazing pictures that you have,and this thread has had me interested for a while.

My great-grandad was in the St Julien/Poelcapelle area during 3rd Ypres,and most probably walked past these tanks on the way up to the front,maybe.

The other part that interested me,was the fact your Grand-father was part of the Whippet counter-attack,near Villers-Bretonneux,on the 24.4.18.

On this day my Great-grandad was killed in action,while serving with the 58th Battalion MGC,near Hangard Wood.

58th Division were in the same area as your Grandad's Tank Battalion on 2 occasions,at least,so it seems.

Regards.

Simon Furnell

[Guest Simon Bull]

This is a belated reply to the many helpful comments which have been made in relation to the photographs which Chris very kindly put on the Forum on my behalf.

I wonder if anyone who is more knowledgeable than me about uniforms (about which I know absolutely nothing) could tell me anything about the nationality and units of the men shown in the two photographs which Paul has posted on the website.

It seems clear that my grandfather's second and third photographs were taken at the Poelcapel-Langemark crossroads, and I shall go to visit that site next time I am in the area, which will probably be in July or August. Thank you very much to those, particularly Chris, Ian and Jacky who contributed a great deal to this discovery. Thanks also to Robert for further information about the relevant tanks.

I have spent a long time poring over my grandfather's first photograph in comparison with Paul's first photograph. I cannot make up my mind whether they may be showing the same site at different times, and, obviously from a different angle. I will have to consider the matter further.

Jeff, it would be very helpful if you could e-mail me the photographs from the Michelin guide. As far as the actions of C battalion at Ypres are concerned, it is some years since I looked at the original records and I have very few photocopies of them, so I am hoping to spend some time in the PRO analysing the records a bit more carefully about exactly where C battalion went. My grandfather was a very precise man and I would be extremely surprised if his note of where the tank shown in the first photographs are located was inaccurate, so it will be interesting to see if I can tie the photographs up with the records. Incidentally, I find it very curious that he apparently went back and visited the battlefield, as, in later life, he hardly ever spoke about the catwalk -- indeed it was as if he had not been involved in it. The only indication of his possible involvement was that he could not bear to watch anything involving war on television, films or documentaries about any war would be immediately turned off

Simon, the information you give is most interesting. It is odd these little coincidences that the War throws up. Is your great-grandfather buried in the lovely little cemetery at Hangard Wood? I know this area quite well, having explored it thoroughly before the motorway was built (more or less right over where my grandfather was taken prisoner) and managed to locate, literally, to within a few yards, the spot where my grandfather's tank was knocked out on the battlefield. By quite remarkable coincidence I have managed to trace a relative of the commander of his tank who was killed in the action. My first ever visit to the area coincided with the unveiling of a memorial to the tank-to-tank battle which took place earlier on the same day. After seeing the unveiling of the memorial I visited the cemetery at Crucifix Corner, where Harry Dale, my grandfather's tank commander, was buried. Flicking through the visitors book I noticed an entry which said "no one to visit you for 80 years Harry, we will come again". The surname of the person who had made the entry was also Dale. The gentleman in question (a great-nephew of Harry Dale) had left a very small portion of his address in the visitor’s book. More in hope than expectation, on my return to England, I wrote to him using such part of the address as I had obtained from the visitors book. Remarkably, the Post Office delivered the letter on the next day, which turned out, by entire coincidence, to be the exact 80th anniversary of the day upon which my grandfather had been taken prisoner and Harry Dale killed. I have subsequently met with his great-nephew on the battlefield and we have stood together and been photographed, more or less, upon the very spot where the tank was knocked out. Anyway, that is something of a digression, but I thought it was interesting given the coincidences between where your great-grandfather was and my grandfather was during the War.

Thanks again to all who have assisted me. I may possibly revive this topic a little later in the year when I have had an opportunity to visit the PRO. In the interim, any further assistance will be much appreciated. If I do manage to locate the spot in the summer and take modern-day photographs of it I shall try to post them on this topic.

Regards

Simon Bull

[Paul Reed]

Re. uniforms. In the top photo they are all British soldiers. In the bottom one they are a mix of British and Belgian soldiers - there is a British officer standing on the tank with a cane. I would date these photos around 1919 or very early 1920.

I might have some more somewhere - will have a look after this weekend.

[Hedley Malloch]

We'd all love to see a list of where these are, Hedley.

I write this without benefit of access to my library, but there is a book by Philip Gorzynski and AN Other on the tanks of Cambrai. In that book the authors trace the movements of the tanks involved in the 1917 fighting over the battlefield. They list and map the precise locations on the battlefield of the tanks who were knocked out or broke down or otherwise abandoned. They describe the sites today and indicate what can still be found on the ground. On some, but not all, sites the authors indicate that one can still find what appear to be remnants of the tanks. Not much, but something.

Some kind person will see this posting, know the book to which I refer and give fuller details; otherwise I will supply it next week when I am next at my PC.

[charlesmessenger]

The title of the book is `Following the Tanks: Cambrai 20th November - 7th December 1917' by Jean-Luc Gibot and Philippe Gorczynski. Altough published in France, there is a very good English translation of it.

To my knowledge, it is not possible today to see any remains of the knocked out tanks, apart, of course, from Deborah, which Philippe recovered from the Flesquieres Ridge and now sits in a barn in the village of Flesquieres.

Charles M

[Graham-McAdam]

Charles - of course, you're right. It isn't conceivable that any bits are lying around which haven't ended up in one of the Gorczynski sheds. Though I suppose that in those tangled depths of Bourlon Wood you never know....