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Remembered Today:

Kitchener's Plaque & Scroll


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Yup, It is back on Ebay.

Let's see what happens this time - with the lack of interest so far, if the seller keeps re-listing, he will end up out of pocket !!!

James

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

Well for $5 I have a scroll you can have named to:

'Pte Peter Thadius Peregrine Wood, Womans Auxiliary Balloon Corps (Blackheath Division)'.

But don't forget I have the copyright on any future pictures of it

:lol:

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Guest Pete Wood
Well for $5 I have a scroll you can have named to:

'Pte Peter Thadius Peregrine Wood, Womans Auxiliary Balloon Corps (Blackheath Division)'.

But don't forget I have the copyright on any future pictures of it

:lol:

Sold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll also bequeath you my children, should there be any, with all the rights that go with them.

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I assume a plaque and scroll were issued. If so where are they?

Museum/family?

Any ideas of the value of the real one?

Regards

Anthony

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Guest Pete Wood
I assume a plaque and scroll were issued. If so where are they?

Museum/family?

Any ideas of the value of the real one?

Regards

Anthony

Anthony, the plaque(s) for Kitchener has been discussed a few times. This thread will give you some history http://www.1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?s...39&hl=kitchener

If you could persuade the Kitchener family to sell their plaque and scroll, I would say that this price was fair.

I believe that another of the Kitchener plaques is about to be sold. The owner wants a "low four figure sum."

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Racing Teapots, are you following me? Great name by the way.

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The funny thing is... he's increased the opening bid. Previously I think it was US$9999.99.... I've heard of inflation but that's plain silly!!! <_<

Les.

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I'm very familiar with Mr. "Surlamer" as I track many victorian medals on ebay. His stock in trade usually seems to be Ghurka medals but almost anything occasionally pops up. He's a right pain when he's competing with you for a medal that he'll later attempt to sell on, as his idea of its value is just ridiculous. Many are the medals that would have found a good home with another bidder but now spends its time revolving on ebay.

He certainly has a unique idea about pricing and medal quality classification. If an item doesn't garner any bids for a few listings, instead of lowering the price like most normal individuals in acknowledgment that he's being optimistic, he puts the price up by a certain percentage.

For example he has a grotty Victory medal to a 5th Buffs officer, originally listed at $149.99 for the last few months. Unsurprisingly no-one bid so he went and raised the starting price to $159.99. :lol:

Just to illustrate his idea of inflation, in Jun 03 he listed a MGS with Fort Detroit for $4,799.99. Again, no bids. By Nov 03 it was listed at $5,999.99. I expect by the end of this year, this "Kitchener" plaque will be well over the $14,000 mark.

One wonders if he actually wants to sell any of these medals, or is he just holding out hope for a sucker to come along. I guess he's like the postcard magnate mentioned on another thread a couple of months ago.

As you can probably tell, his antics have irritated me somewhat, but now I just laugh when I see his latest effort. :)

Matthew

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"Surlamer" is a well-known medal dealer who has been in business for at least 30 or more years and who is a member of OMSA and as far as I know the OMRS. He is present at the OMSA convention every year with numerous tables of medals and also attends numerous Canadian shows. Obviously, if he has been in business for that length of time he must be making a good living in the medal business. Westkent78 states that "He's a right pain when he's competing with you for a medal" and that is true. He is willing to pay top dollar for the medals he purchases and, in order to make a profit, he must sell them at an even higher price.

I have no intention of defending or criticizing the way he does business. I am only indicating that while his methods may not be agreeable to everyone, he has been successful in doing what he does and has made a living doing business in that manner. He is not a fool, as some on this forum have implied. I would also mention that there are a number of relatively well-known UK medal dealers that deal in exactly the same manner. One of them bought a medal group to a Lieut. General at the OMSA convention a year ago at $13,000 (US) and it appeared in his next catalogue at £13,000; and any number of dealers in both the US and UK regularly raise the price of medal lots that have not sold for a year or more - and why shouldn't they? The market prices are increasing on almost a monthly basis.

The medal business is just like any other business. Some sell high, some sell low. Some raise prices for long, unsold items and others lower their prices for the same material. The buyer has the right to pay the price or not pay the price - that is their choice. Regards. Dick Flory

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Guest Ian Bowbrick

Whilst some of us here are VERY familiar with the story behind these items, it goes against forum rules to denigrate someone who is unable to defend themselves. The way this guy operates are virtues in a capitalist environment - he seems to me to be an astute businessman. But as always don't get into the right hand side oif a car unless you know how to drive - caviat emptor always.

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astute businessman

Ian, I am not going to comment on this gentleman per se because I don't know him. But, an "astute businessman" would try to maximise profit whilst maintaining a sharp turnover in stock and not have a large proportion of capital tied up in stock that just seems to be on the ebay roundabout.

Andy

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Guest Pete Wood

Agreed. But what makes Surlamer 'clever' is that he will (when his medals are sold) make the same profit, even after he has paid the eBay fees, as when the price was lower.

I don't believe he will lose out on any interest either, that might have been gained, if his money was tied up in a savings account (instead of medal stock).

So, as long as he is in a postition where cashflow is not important, it doesn't matter how long it takes to sell the items. His stock has no sell-by-date, and is (in theory) appreciating in value by the day.

I have talked to, and emailed this gentleman on a few occassions, as mentioned on other threads. He is very charming, and came across as a honest guy. I can't fault him.

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But as always don't get into the right hand side oif a car unless you know how to drive

Ian: that's the passenger side of the car...

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Guest Ian Bowbrick
But as always don't get into the right hand side oif a car unless you know how to drive

Ian: that's the passenger side of the car...

Not in this country mate.

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I humbly apologize to "Surlamer" for my impuning of his business sense in my last post. He is to be admired as a paragon of the capitalistic society in which we live and he certainly has every right to do what he will with his money and his property. But, like every other market, the plan is only successful if a punter actually buys the item at his designated price.

I wholeheartedly agree that he comes across as an honest and respectable person. I would question some of his medal quality classifications and the inflation rate he applies to his stock but I'd add the caveat that it is a subjective area, and he's been at this for a lot longer than I have.

It just disheartens me to see medals revolve year after year when they could be with someone who would look after them, research the man who earned them and keep his memory alive. I realize this is an emotional response, and many dealers are successful in business only because they don't let emotions get in the way.

For me it boils down to an issue of where medals should be; with the family, the regimental museum, the collecting public or dealers.

Dealers are a necessary conduit for the collecting public to source medals but I see it as fundamentally anathema for medals to reside on ebay, a trade table or showroom window year upon year. Just my opinion and no doubt the dealers amongst you will disagree with me. My impression from this forum however, is that you manage to strike the happy balance between meeting commercial imperatives and the emotional import of the goods you trade, and I wish all dealers were able to emulate you.

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Guest Ian Bowbrick
For me it boils down to an issue of where medals should be; with the family, the regimental museum, the collecting public or dealers.

A number of the items that I have in 'stock' have been sourced from families where there is no interest or nobody to leave them to. Most pensioners are always pleased for the additional money to help stretch a meagre income.

With regard to Regimental Museums, many no longer take medal groups unless they are significant and have substantial provenance such as a DCM trio and photographs of the recipient. In addition having sourced material for museums in this country, I can honestly say that what you see on display usually accounts for about 15% of their collections - many no longer have the physical space to store more or the resource to catalogue.

As for dealers, like everything else, there is good and bad, some who can turn over items quickly, others who can't. Whether we like it or not, this plaque and scroll are the property of this dealer to dispose of as he wishes. If however someone has a strong objection t it being hawked on eBay every 6 months or so, buy it!

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