Help with Photo

[Brian A Tomlin]

Any information at all would be appreciated regarding this photo

On the back of the photo is written

Telephone Station 1916.

Bromley Hotel Grounds.

Taken by R.Q.M.S. Birch

I have been lead to believe that the uniform is that of the RGA is this correct Plus anything known about R.Q.M.S. Birch

What is the rank of the chap holding the gun, I think I can see something on his right arm

Thank you

Brian a Tomlin

[4thGordons]

The "gun" is in fact a Martini Carbine, probably a Martini-Enfield .303" carbine, which in itself makes the picture quite interesting for WWI

(TonyE might have more to add)

Sorry I cannot make out the rank badge.

Chris

[bigjohn]

Hi

The badge dos'nt look like Artillery, The chap [with my eyes] is possibly a L/Cpl with some small badge in the centre of the stripe.

Sorry I can't help any more the picture is a bit too light for me to make out the badge, Forum member Frogsmile will probably be along later with the i.d. of the badge.

Regards

John

[FROGSMILE]

I concur with Chris that the long arm is a Martini Carbine, which would suggest either Territorials, or war raised volunteers of a Service battalion undergoing training, early in the war. The men appear to be acting out the duties of an observation or signals post using a field telephone. The badge is not artillery but is too indistinct to be defined. It might perhaps be signals service soldiers of the Royal Engineers but that is mere speculation and it could easily be some other unit altogether. A more close up view of the badge might help with an ID if the resolution is reasonable.

[Old Owl]

Looking at the apparent age of the 'men' or boys in the posed photo I wonder if they could be members of a school OTC?

Bromley Hotel, presumably in Bromley, Kent? could have been boys from Quernmore and Sidcup School OTC? Not sure what their cap badge was like?

[FROGSMILE]

Looking at the apparent age of the 'men' or boys in the posed photo I wonder if they could be members of a school OTC?

Bromley Hotel, presumably in Bromley, Kent? could have been boys from Quernmore and Sidcup School OTC? Not sure what their cap badge was like?

A very good suggestion I think. OTCs were all equipped with Martini's for marksmanship practice.

[Brian A Tomlin]

Hello

Thank you for the information.

During a visit from elderly relatives over the Christmas period they tell me that the soldier on the left hand side of the picture using the telephone is my father, I have his Army service record, so I am able to give the following information.

12^th February 1916 Enlisted at Central Recruiting Depot Whitehall London and extended to group number 26 as an Electrical Wireman.

13^th February 1916 sent to Army Reserve Class B Unit 40^th Anti Aircraft Company

Regiment Royal Garrison Artillery. Rank Gunner.

Does this help?

Brian A Tomlin

[Old Owl]

Hi Brian,

What age was your father when he enlisted? Do you know if he attended a school which may have had an O.T.C.?

Better still, can you do a close up from the photo of their cap badge/badges as this will hopefully identify the unit. I can still see no connection with the Royal Artillery.

Robert

[Old Owl]

Hi Brian,

I have checked the December 1915 Army List and found only two men by the name of Birch with the rank of WO Class 1(RQMS included in this rank), these two are:

1) Under ASC: Regimental Staff Sgt Major, Supply and Transport, F.V.Birch.

2) Under RAMC: Regimental Sgt Major, E.Birch (also shown as Hon.Lt. and Qtr.Mtr.)

Looking again at the photo the cap badge does look a little like an ASC badge.

Robert

[Blackblue]

What was your father's name Brian? Do you know what his number was?

Rgds

Tim D

[Brian A Tomlin]

Hello Robert and Tim D

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

Here is the information requested

My father's name George Alfred Tomlin.

His Army service number 174668

Age when enlisted 18 (born 1898)

School details. Left Holebeach Road School Catford South East London in 1912 I assume from this date he would not have been part of an O.T.C

Don't know anything about Fred Birch I am afraid other than he was my father's nephew and we think he also lived in Catford at that time.

I have managed to get a close up of the cap badge not that good I am afraid

Thanks again for your help

Brian A Tomlin

[Blackblue]

Hi Brian,

I note there is another number on his Service Papers - 56278 and a notation "South London'. Unsure if this is of any significance...may just be his Army Reserve number after enlistment and prior to being assigned to RGA.

The badge looks like ASC or possibly Devons in the photo here. Maybe ASC is supported by the fact Fred Birch was ASC. Are you sure this is George in the photo and not just a photo of Fred's men which would be a more likely explanation?

I would be fairly confident that OTC or previous service would have been mentioned in George's Service Papers if he had served with them. He spent the majority of the war with the 40th Anti-Aircraft Company, Royal Garrison Artillery which appears to have served at home.

http://www.1914-1918.net/aa_artillery.htm

Graham Stewart (perhaps PM him) appears to have a publication that will tell you where the 40th served (maybe London based).

I note there are service papers on Ancestry for a Frederick Vaughan Birch who enlisted in the ASC in 1894. He was in Jamaica between 1911 and 1916, when he resigned to take up a Commission as a Lieutenant and Quartermaster, also in Jamaica. If this is your man perhaps he came home in 1916?

Rgds

Tim D

[kevinrowlinson]

Your father attested on the 12 February 1916 but was not mobilised until the 19 July 1917 and approved at Bostal Heath Camp, Abbey Wood ( an AA Training Depot) on the 24 July 1917. After training he was posted to 40 AA Coy. This Coy was formed at Bartons Point, Sheerness, in 1916, where I assume it remained as he was still there before being sent to Crystal Palace dispersal centre. I assume that 40 AA Coy came under the Thames & Medway AA Defence Command.

I wonder whether in the interim he joined a local Voluntary Training Corp, which may not have been at Bromley specifically; maybe they were visiting there for a training exercise. The local papers may have details about those that were serving around his area in 1916/1917.

Kevin

[FROGSMILE]

Your father attested on the 12 February 1916 but was not mobilised until the 19 July 1917 and approved at Bostal Heath Camp, Abbey Wood ( an AA Training Depot) on the 24 July 1917. After training he was posted to 40 AA Coy. This Coy was formed at Bartons Point, Sheerness, in 1916, where I assume it remained as he was still there before being sent to Crystal Palace dispersal centre. I assume that 40 AA Coy came under the Thames & Medway AA Defence Command.

I wonder whether in the interim he joined a local Voluntary Training Corp, which may not have been at Bromley specifically; maybe they were visiting there for a training exercise. The local papers may have details about those that were serving around his area in 1916/1917.

Kevin

A good suggestion Kevin, the shape of the badge is still very indistinct, but it might perhaps be the City of London VTC, or a similar unit.

[Brian A Tomlin]

Thanks for all the information

Regarding F Birch

I have managed to find out a little more about Fred Birch. His full name was Frederick Thomas Birch, born 1899 at Catford South East London (his father was Thomas and mother Elizabeth) does this help.

My father as you say served at Sheerness in Kent as far as we know for the duration of the war, we are sure the chap on the left in the picture is my father plus the details on the back of the picture were written by him.

Thanks again

Brian