Tom Morgan Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 Let's say that a soldier (not wearing his equipment) drops a Mills Bomb in the middle of a wide, open space like a parade-ground, and the pin falls out and the lever flies off. The soldier's instinctive reaction is to run. Would it be possible, in the time allowed, to run far enough from the bomb to avoid injury from the fragments? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shippingsteel Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 Or even in the attempt to throw the bomb, the soldier unsuccesfully clears the parapet, and said bomb ends up at his feet. I've often wondered.? Cheers, S>S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayessex Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 Hi Yes, quick dash then down feet together and facing bomb. That should do it, if you got your wits about you. But normally you would just pick it up and wing it. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 Hi Tom, Part of the training was for the squad being trained to lay on the ground in a circle with their heads near a round steel plate. The instructor would pull the pin on a bomb, sit it in the centre of the plate and lay down next to the squad. When the bomb went off the blast would safely go over the heads of the squad. Laying down was the answer - unless you can run several thousand feet per second! Cheers, Taff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayessex Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 Hi Chief, Your jogging my memory now, I do remember being told to drop to the ground, but always with feet facing device and firmly together and arms under body. As for could you get a safe distance from device, I still believe you could. Even 10 Yards would help! Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 I do remember being told to drop to the ground, but always with feet facing device Perhaps it depends whether you`re wearing a steel helmet or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 I've approched the question from a simple mathemetics persepctive. Using the following assumptions regarding world war 1 Mills bombs (these were gleaned from non perfect but reasonably realistic sources) A full fuzed Mill Bombs will take circa 7 seconds to detonate from being activated (we'll assume count down commences from the time the bomb hits the floor) The kill zone amounts to circa 10 metres & the wounding zone (where the casualty is likely to be incapacitated) amounts to circa 37.5 metres (I've taken a mid point as I've seen 30-45 metres quoted & I've not included for the possibility of fragments flying further although I acknowledge this could happen up to a couple of hundred metres in extremes) Therefore if I am Usain Bolt equalling my 100 metres world record running time of 9.58 seconds, I will have managed to get circa 73 metres away from the Mill Bomb before it detonates & as such statistically would escape any injury. If I'm Will O'Brien aged 15 (when I managed to run the 100 metres in 12.5 second - not a bad time & sufficent to get into my school house relay team) I'd be circa 56 metres so again statistically I should escape any real injury although the margin would be significantly reduced compared to Mr Bolt. If I'm Will O'Brien of 2011 who reckons he's a good 6-7 seconds slower than his 15 year old counterpart, I'd only be 35 metres away at detonation so I'm probably going to get hurt Factor in a two seconds to react to the situation & add another half a second as I'm in uniform rather than a sports vest & shorts, I'm less than 24 metres away so a definate 'Blighty' for sure & if I'm unlucky a trip to visit St Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 My father used to tell the story of grenade training between the wars (TA Camp) when grenades were thrown from a trench (for safety reasons) and one gormless item threw his straight up so it fell right back down into the trench containing the thrower, a couple of instructors, and the next two men awaiting their throw (one of whom was my Father) Dad always said he never remembered actually getting out of the trench but he and all the others were lying down on the ground when the bomb exploded in the bottom of the trench. It appeared that the instructors had actually picked up the idiot and thrown him bodily over the top before exiting themselves, otherwise he would still have been standing gaping in the trench. This example had been enough signal for the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayessex Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 Hi Will, Great answer, but are you not assuming a Mills bomb is an all round killing device. Like throwing rocks into a pond, anything touched by the ripples will be hurt or killed? This is far from the truth, as the ripples can be broken and deflected. Don't forget safety distances are alway exagerated too. I would still rate my chances outside 10 Yards, if flat on the ground. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayessex Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 Hi Centurian, Similar story, there is something about putting a Grenade in someones hand that turns their brains to jelly. Even after a series of briefings people get it wrong. Used to throw them from behind a shoulder high 3ft thick concrete wall, this had a concrete trench about 4ft behind the thrower. The idea was, if the thrower dropped the Grenade the instuctor would simply kick it into the trench, and drop himself and the thrower too the ground. On more than one occasion I've seen the instructor kick the Grenade into the trench, only to see the thrower follow it. Quite funny seeing a small slim build instructor trying to pull a 6ft 16 stone thrower out of the trench. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief_Chum Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 The standard fuze was 4 seconds; rifle grenades had 7. That loses Lightning Bolt three seconds and probably fills his backside with fragments! I don't think it's as simple as working out the distance. The blast works in mysterious ways as Ray says. From memory at the point of detonation the blast heads up in a cone shape and then drops so the nearer you are to it (laying down) when it explodes the better. I'm sure someone will know the answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 The standard fuze was 4 seconds; rifle grenades had 7. That loses Lightning Bolt three seconds and probably fills his backside with fragments! 4 seconds not 7...............who cares about Mr Bolt, it's Mr O'Brien of the 2011 variety I'm worried about as it barely gives enough time for my life to flash before my eyes. Appreciate the maths was rough, the zones would would not be uniform & that lying down would be the safest option, but as Tom's question was 'is it possible to out-run the bomb blast?', i've tried to present a proposal that it was..............the flaw of course & as Taff has pointed out it would only work if it's a rifle grenade On a re-calculation of a 4 second fuse, Usain is 41 metres away so is going to probably take an ambulance home. The young O'Brien is 32 metres away so will be sharing the same ambulance if he's lucky & the current Mr O'Brien would be 18 metres away & would have a good chance of being wrapped up in an army blanket & laid to rest in the nearest available hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepper Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 And then there is take your steel helmet off, cover the grenade with it and then stand on the helmet to reduce the spread of fragments. This was the action of Sgt Carmichael of 9th Battalion North Staffs and it won him a VC. Remarkably he wasn't seriously injured. I've often wondered that as this wasn't a front line incident, the unit being a pioneer battalion, and occurring while his men were cleaning up a trench and unearthed a live grenade, that has this happened during the Second World War would it have resulted in a GC rather than a VC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 The answer to Could the soldier on the parade ground outrun the blast? is, possibly, if he was to run as soon as he dropped it but he might not outrun the fragments. I have read accounts and heard anecdotes of the strange patterns of injury and survival from grenades and mortar bombs and it appeared to me that it was very much a lottery. Within a certain radius, all feel the blast but not all are hit by fragments and that makes sense. The blast occurs in the atmosphere but there is only a relatively small amount of metal to spread around an ever increasing volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRC Kevin Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 The answer to Could the soldier on the parade ground outrun the blast? is, possibly, if he was to run as soon as he dropped it but he might not outrun the fragments. I have read accounts and heard anecdotes of the strange patterns of injury and survival from grenades and mortar bombs and it appeared to me that it was very much a lottery. Within a certain radius, all feel the blast but not all are hit by fragments and that makes sense. The blast occurs in the atmosphere but there is only a relatively small amount of metal to spread around an ever increasing volume. I believe the 'fragment lottery' was the reason why the 36 grenade was discontinued and replaced with a grenade which gave a much more even spread of fragments from the serrated wire contained within. Memory (which may be suspect due to age and senility) seems to dredge up a maximum of a 30 yard lethal zone for all except the base plug, which could carry twice the distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 And then there is take your steel helmet off, cover the grenade with it and then stand on the helmet to reduce the spread of fragments. This was the action of Sgt Carmichael of 9th Battalion North Staffs and it won him a VC. Remarkably he wasn't seriously injured. I've often wondered that as this wasn't a front line incident, the unit being a pioneer battalion, and occurring while his men were cleaning up a trench and unearthed a live grenade, that has this happened during the Second World War would it have resulted in a GC rather than a VC? I remember my uncle relating a similar incident he witnessed, the soldier threw his brodie over the mills bomb and then jumped on top of it, the explosion blew both of the soldiers feet off and he subsequently died. AFAIK he only got a wooden cross. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrislock Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 My mate did this but with a stun grenade rather than fragmentation grenade. End result: two badly smashed ankles and medical discharge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 I chucked a "modern live one" in training, in the TA, in the 1970's. Before being allowed near them i.e.degreasing,fuzing ,etc we were told of their killing range and the fact that their best place of deployment,in anger,was in confined spaces,but not a danger to the thrower,e.g. buildings,etc. There is a difference between throwing one,in practice,and if an accident happens survive and using them for their proper purpose. And as I was told "extracting the pin", with your teeth,should be left to John Wayne in his Films. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
militariaone Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 Ok Gents, an embarrassing admission follows. Having dropped a live hand grenade during the culmination of a live-fire movement to contact range, I'd have to agree wholeheartedly with Rayessex's observation. I simply picked it up and threw it out of the trench I was standing in. It was an instinctive drill and I did it at the time with about as much thought as a weapon's reload/magazine switch. Only afterwards did the seriousness of the event strike me when umpires/observers commended my actions and explained the results had I not fixed my own problem. I belive the average "trained" or "seasoned" Soldier would have done the same regardless of country....a new recruit though, now we might see some of that running/distance math put into action. On a sidenote, I do remember the eyes of the Soldier next to me getting quite large as he realized the pin was not in the grenade spinning on the ground heading his way. Fortunately, I have had no further issues with "Mr. Grenade", however I assure you all the relationship remains one of deepest respect. Regards, Lance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 15 December , 2011 Share Posted 15 December , 2011 4 seconds not 7...............who cares about Mr Bolt, it's Mr O'Brien of the 2011 variety I'm worried about as it barely gives enough time for my life to flash before my eyes. Appreciate the maths was rough, the zones would would not be uniform & that lying down would be the safest option, but as Tom's question was 'is it possible to out-run the bomb blast?', i've tried to present a proposal that it was..............the flaw of course & as Taff has pointed out it would only work if it's a rifle grenade On a re-calculation of a 4 second fuse, Usain is 41 metres away so is going to probably take an ambulance home. The young O'Brien is 32 metres away so will be sharing the same ambulance if he's lucky & the current Mr O'Brien would be 18 metres away & would have a good chance of being wrapped up in an army blanket & laid to rest in the nearest available hole. Will, While your calculations are admirable, how far do you reckon Usain Bolt would run if he was dressed in army uniform, wearing a pair of heavy boots (not ultra light running shoes) and rather than a smooth tan track had to get going over a greasy mud filled ground from the trench ? My guess - not very far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Moretti Posted 16 December , 2011 Share Posted 16 December , 2011 Interesting - I've just been writing a piece of fiction in which a character has two narrow escapes from grenades which for all intents and purposes can be regarded as Mills bombs. In the first, a brave comrade throws himself on the thing just before it goes off. My heroine is somewhat deafened and spattered with gore, but otherwise unhurt. On the second occasion, she hears the voice on the other side of a sturdy stone wall yell "No, wait, you fool!" as the grenade is pitched over, and so picks it up and lobs it back before ducking against the wall. It goes off just as it clears the other side of the wall (which, for argument's sake, is sufficiently strong to withstand a Mills bomb). Further deafened and disoriented by flash and bang, but unhurt by fragments. How much redrafting do I have to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Druid_Ian Posted 16 December , 2011 Share Posted 16 December , 2011 again a modern incident and also a training grenade but gives an idea of how fast you move with a live grenade bouncing around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 16 December , 2011 Share Posted 16 December , 2011 As Lieutenant George might say, this is all fine, brave and noble. Running like a hare away from a Mills bomb, safe in the knowledge of statistics and that you can get ten yards or more away and be safe. But the reality is surely somewhat different: just look at this list of winners of the Albert Medal and how many of the recipients were wounded in grenade incidents. http://www.1914-1918.net/grandad/albert.htm. It was not, perhaps, as easy to escape injury as it might seem on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 16 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 16 December , 2011 Thanks to all posters for the replies/points of view/calculations/anecdotes. When I asked the question I was thinking that maybe you could outrun the bomb. Now I'm not so sure. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterhogg Posted 17 December , 2011 Share Posted 17 December , 2011 I think you generally just throw yourself up in the air and make screaming noises Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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