Help needed to identify US (?) soldiers uniforms

[DaveKey]

During my research into Hursley Park, near Winchester, I was kindly given 2 photographs showing soldiers (US AEF ?) posing outside one of the estate lodges.

Unfortunately my knowledge of uniforms is poor at best, so I was hoping someone on the forum might be able to help identify the uniforms so I can try to link them to the units that were in Hursley & Standon during the Great War.

I have selected a detail from one of the photos which seems to show them best.

Any assistance will be most welcome and appreciated

Yours sincerely

Dave

[DaveKey]

Another view of the soldiers ...

[Khaki]

Photo's too indistinct for any specific details as to units etc, appears to be typical US army officers of the period, based on what I can see from officer quality uniforms etc.

khaki

[4thGordons]

I would agree : virtually nothing to go on there. They do look to be American though.

If you have a precise date you might be able to limit the units a bit using the US Order of Battle which has pretty detailed timelines for each unit but beyond that I see nothing to go on.

US unit markings/branch of service etc were usually displayed on collar brasses, even divisional patches were not used until post war (there is some evidence one or two units introduced them prior to the armistice) so even with good views units are notoriously difficult to identify.

Chris

[tn.drummond]

I notice that you describe the buildings as part of an estate lodge. Just wondering if you're certain of this as they look to be more typical of continental Europe, that and the lady's dress looks distinctly French widow in weeds. There seems to be an awful lot of debris around,seems a strange venue for a domestic shot.

Just observations and more than happy to be proved wrong.

Can' really add to the uniform details except they match most shots of Gen.Pershing in a greatcoat of the period so they are more than likely to be officers.

Suddery

[DaveKey]

I notice that you describe the buildings as part of an estate lodge. Just wondering if you're certain of this as they look to be more typical of continental Europe, that and the lady's dress looks distinctly French widow in weeds. There seems to be an awful lot of debris around,seems a strange venue for a domestic shot.

Just observations and more than happy to be proved wrong.

Can' really add to the uniform details except they match most shots of Gen.Pershing in a greatcoat of the period so they are more than likely to be officers.

Suddery

Hi Suddery,

Your observation is a good one, however the pictures are definitely of the somewhat unusual Swiss Chalet-style estate lodge built to the north of Merdon Castle on the edge of Hursley Park. The Heathcote family who built it had something of a love of Switzerland, but this was an odd building (now demolished).

I asked about the uniforms as there are a lot of US AEF who passed through Hursley, or just visited it.

As well as the US military Hospital (Base Hospital #204) and the associated Construction units Hursley & Standon (also part of the Hursley Estate) was also a "rest camp" for many of the AEF Aero Squadrons.

Hence my inquiry to see whether there was anything distinctive about the uniforms, which I had doubted owing to the lack of detail, but one lives in hope

I don't think they are part of the Hospital Staff, I have pictures of Unit I, but I could be wrong so even just differentiation between Aero/medical/construction etc. would be a great step forward.

I've tried scanning to a higher resolution but I think I'm at the limit of the photograph. As far as I can see there is no insignia ... but then that's why I'm asking for help!

Thanks

Dave

[FROGSMILE]

Hi Suddery,

Your observation is a good one, however the pictures are definitely of the somewhat unusual Swiss Chalet-style estate lodge built to the north of Merdon Castle on the edge of Hursley Park. The Heathcote family who built it had something of a love of Switzerland, but this was an odd building (now demolished).

I asked about the uniforms as there are a lot of US AEF who passed through Hursley, or just visited it.

As well as the US military Hospital (Base Hospital #204) and the associated Construction units Hursley & Standon (also part of the Hursley Estate) was also a "rest camp" for many of the AEF Aero Squadrons.

Hence my inquiry to see whether there was anything distinctive about the uniforms, which I had doubted owing to the lack of detail, but one lives in hope

I don't think they are part of the Hospital Staff, I have pictures of Unit I, but I could be wrong so even just differentiation between Aero/medical/construction etc. would be a great step forward.

I've tried scanning to a higher resolution but I think I'm at the limit of the photograph. As far as I can see there is no insignia ... but then that's why I'm asking for help!

Thanks

Dave

It's a very generic uniform Dave, but if we could see the badges on their caps we could at least identify their branch. The shiny brown leather peaks are indicative of US Army officers and, at that time, their bronzed cap badges showed the branch that they belonged to, e.g. in the enclosed image you can see the castellated towers indicating the US Army Corps of Engineers.

[centurion]

I was under the impression that by mid 1918 most US Army officers serving in France and Britain had abandoned the service cap in favour of the overseas cap leaving only the most senior and the most conservative (probably this is a tautology) to continue wearing the latter.

However looking at a photo taken in 1919 in Archangel they are all wearing the service cap

http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/American-officers-Archangel.jpg

[FROGSMILE]

This gives a slightly better view of the cap.

[dutchbarge]

Looks to be that they are wearing the M1904 wool overcoat and wool service caps. Both officer and OR versions of these items are very similar however the leather gaiters would seem to indicate someone of officer rank or at least a fatter bankroll. The lack of officers braid on the cuffs of the overcoats and lack of cap badges makes me wonder if they were perhaps civilian volunteers (journalists, red cross, ambulance, etc.) many of whom were allowed to wear military kit sans insignia. Cheers, Bill

[dutchbarge]

Example of officers M1904 overcoat with cuff braid. I'd expect as old as these guys appear to be, especially the geezer on bended knee, they'd either have hi ranking officers cuff braid or at least some serious NCO stripes. Lack of either make me wonder if they aren't civilians. Cheers, Bill

[DaveKey]

Looks to be that they are wearing the M1904 wool overcoat and wool service caps. Both officer and OR versions of these items are very similar however the leather gaiters would seem to indicate someone of officer rank or at least a fatter bankroll. The lack of officers braid on the cuffs of the overcoats and lack of cap badges makes me wonder if they were perhaps civilian volunteers (journalists, red cross, ambulance, etc.) many of whom were allowed to wear military kit sans insignia. Cheers, Bill

Hi Bill.

Red Cross would certainly make some sense since the photographs were taken next to a Base Hospital & Camp with Red Cross & YMCA as well as the Medical Officers, Construction Engineers and Aero Squadron personnel. I couldn't see any insignia on the coats or caps which had surprised me (not that I couldn't identify them, just that they didn't seem to be there) and this might explain that.

Thanks

Dave