iron instead of brass cartridge cases

[Martin Bennitt]

In a book I'm just reading, 'Haig, a Reappraisal, 70 years on', which is a collection of essays by historians doing just what the title says, Keith Grieves, discussing Haig's relations with LG's government, cites a memorandum from Haig to the War Cabinet in summer 1917 drawing attention to 'the shortage of German telephone equipment, the use of iron (rather than brass) cartridge cases and the generally reduced physique of men in German field units' (my italics) as evidence of the diminished resources of the German army since the Somme.

Can some expert elaborate on the iron rather than brass, please? Was it really thus, and are we talking rifle or artillery ammunition here, or was Haig or his staff over-egging the pudding?

cheers Martin B

[4thGordons]

I have heard of STEEL cartridge cases - but not iron.

Perhaps TonyE will know

Chris

[Old Tom]

As far as my memory of metalurgy goes - not far these days! I could accept that if there was a shortage of copper and tin, cartridges of iron would seem a possibilty. Iron i.e. with a very low content of other elements is quite soft and maleable and could I think be used to maunfacture cartridges. I have not heard of it actually being so used.

Old Tom

[Khaki]

I don't think iron cartridges, if they existed would be effective as they do not have the same ability to expand and contract as either brass or steel. I have used steel cartridges many times and they suffer from cracking and potential extraction problems, I would think that iron would be far worse.

khaki

[Old Owl]

Although I am not entirely sure of the reasons, brass cartridge cases are more suitable due to their strength in relation to their weight, ie brass sheet used to form the cartridges is fairly light and has good strength. Possibly steel cartridge cases would have similar properties, cast iron would be no good due to the strength to weight ratio. Malleable iron would have to be cast or forged so again would be much too expensive to produce.

Steel cartridge cases made from sheet steel would seem to be a possibility? but could create a spark--not always a good combination with high explosive type materials!!

[TonyE]

I think the use of the word "iron" is in this case simply a generic word for ferrous metal, namely mild steel.

The Germans used steel for artillery cases as well as small arms ammunition from about 1917 onwards. It was mainly used for 7.92mm but some 9mm was also made and AFAIK worked perfectly well.

Artillery ammunition is not my area of knowledge so I will let others expand on that aspect of the use of steel cases, but German SAA cases were copper washed, effectively a very thin copper plate on steel. This was done for two reasons, partly to prevent rust but also because copper acts as a lubricant to prevent tool wear during the manufacturing process.

Cartridge cases are not made from sheet metal, whether brass or steel. They are initially stamped as a disc from a thick piece of brass and then cupped before being drawn through a series of dies to form the case. Steel is obviously harder to work that brass, but much cheaper. The copper wash helped overcome this problem.

Although the UK has never made any great use of steel cases for SAA, in WW2 the great majority of German ammunition was steel, much US ammo was steel cased and virtually all Eastern European and Chinese ammo is steel cased to this day.

Regards

TonyE

[CharlieBris]

There are a number of types of steel known as "deep drawing steels" - these usually are low carbon steels with low residuals (other trace elements)

which can be formed by drawing in a die. The forming of cartridge cases from steel is a well known process and although it takes more energy and higher

temperatures to form steel compared to brass similar results can be obtained. I would have thought the copper wash on German cartridges would have been primarily as

a lubricant so the cartridge can be extracted easily after firing.

Regards,

Charlie

[Radlad]

I think the use of the word "iron" is in this case simply a generic word for ferrous metal, namely mild steel.

The Germans used steel for artillery cases as well as small arms ammunition from about 1917 onwards. It was mainly used for 7.92mm but some 9mm was also made and AFAIK worked perfectly well.

Regards

TonyE

I gave away some deactivated 7.65mm Browning steel cased rounds to a friend last year. They were laquered and had DWM 479 headstamps. I got them with a WW1 Imperial Navy marked Mauser model 4 from an old soldiers effects in the 1970's. When they were made, I don't know

[TonyE]

Lacquered steel cases came into use around 1940 in Germany. Prior to that it was all still copper washed. Your Browning rounds were probably made in the period from 1942-45, and indeed the pistol was likely to have been in service with a German officer in WW2.

Regards

TonyE

[Martin Bennitt]

Thanks for your input, folks. Perhaps, it should have read the use of iron in cartridge cases, rather than implying the whole case was just any old iron.

cheers Martin B

[centurion]

Steel cartridge cases go back to the ACW being used in the Agar Coffee Mill Gun (a single barrelled hand cranked machine gun that pre dates the Gatling and used in small numbers). These steel cases were intended to be reusable as at that time they were expensive and difficult to manufacture. They were filled with the Johnston and Dow Patent Cartridge (intended for the Springfield rifle) that consisted of a gunpowder filled paper cartridge with a Miné ball. Unlike the conventional cartridge of the day it was unnecessary to bite off the end and pour the powder into the muzzle of the gun as the paper was itself very combustible (as well as being damp resistant). The whole cartridge could be slid down the barrel or (in the case of the Ager) into the steel cartridge case. The Agar, like the Gatling, proved susceptible to jamming, in the case of the Agar this appears to have been due to the reused cases being slightly distorted.

[MikB]

Steel cases I've used in 7,62x51 seem at least as springy as brass, so the risk of them binding on extraction doesn't look great, though perhaps uncoated rounds might gall in the feed mechanism of automatic weapons. There'd be little point in applying copper wash early in the drawing process, as each draw or form could be carried out wet, with suitable lubricant/coolant pumped into the dies.

The most likely reason for the wash would probably be corrosion protection in transit and storage, and easing of handling and feed in weapons.

Regards,

MikB

[Torrey McLean]

In a book I'm just reading, 'Haig, a Reappraisal, 70 years on', which is a collection of essays by historians doing just what the title says, Keith Grieves, discussing Haig's relations with LG's government, cites a memorandum from Haig to the War Cabinet in summer 1917 drawing attention to 'the shortage of German telephone equipment, the use of iron (rather than brass) cartridge cases and the generally reduced physique of men in German field units' (my italics) as evidence of the diminished resources of the German army since the Somme.

Can some expert elaborate on the iron rather than brass, please? Was it really thus, and are we talking rifle or artillery ammunition here, or was Haig or his staff over-egging the pudding?

cheers Martin B

Hello, Martin -

In an effort to economize on the use of brass, Germany began manufacturing ersatz artillery shell cases as early as 1915. These ersatz cases utilized steel, usually for the bases of shell cases but sometimes for the entire shell case. They were used mostly for shell cases for the 7.7cm field gun, 10.5cm and 15cm howitzers, 21cm howitzers, long-range 10cm guns, and to a lesser degree, for other artillery. A number of variations of these ersatz shell cases have been identified, but due to the problem of rust and the fact that they were not as attractive as the all-brass cases, not many survive today.

I should add that Austrian ersatz shell cases also were used to a lesser extent.

Germany also began using ersatz steel shell cases early in WWII, I think as early as 1940.

I hope that this information helps.

Regards, Torrey

[centurion]

With regard to iron rather than steel I understand that early Boxer cartridges had an iron base and a brass body (rolled rather than extruded) and the extractor would sometimes pull off the iron base leaving the soldier desperately trying to pick out the brass from the breach - not ideal when faced with a Pathan, Abyssinian, etc (pick your own colonial war) charge.

[truthergw]

Thanks for your input, folks. Perhaps, it should have read the use of iron in cartridge cases, rather than implying the whole case was just any old iron.

cheers Martin B

Although Haig was the epitome of professionalism in military matters, I think it fair to regard him as a layman in metallurgy. I believe he was simply using iron as a catchall for all kinds of iron and steel to distinguish it from the non-ferrous metals.

[TonyE]

Mik - I am not sure whether the copper wash was applied early in the drawing process in WWI, but it certainly was later. Also, I don't know of any cartridge drawing process that was carried out wet, but I would be interested to hear of any.

Centurion - Yes, the Boxer cases all had an iron base as you say (except the Snider Pattern 1) which was susceptable to being ripped off by the extractor in both Snider and Martini rifles. There was also quite a lot of experimentation using tinned coiled sheet iron instead of brass for Boxer cartridges in the 1870 period.

Picture attached is of Snider and Martini cases made with iron base disc and coiled brass bodies, covered in paper in the case (sorry) of the Snider. I will post pictures of the coiled iron case later.

Regards

TonyE

[loganshort]

I have a 15cm German steel case which consists of the base (thickest part) and what's left of very rusty sides which are broken, full of rust holes. While the brass ones are far more durable and usually stay in one piece, this sad, decayed rusty one has a place in my little collection and reminds me of the desperate times it would have been made and used in.

[MikB]

With regard to iron rather than steel I understand that early Boxer cartridges had an iron base and a brass body (rolled rather than extruded) and the extractor would sometimes pull off the iron base leaving the soldier desperately trying to pick out the brass from the breach - not ideal when faced with a Pathan, Abyssinian, etc (pick your own colonial war) charge.

...

I up with my gun at a Burman

Who carried a bloomin’ dah,

But the cartridge stuck and the bay’nit bruk,

An’ all I got was the scar.

...

from Private Ortheris' Song - Kipling

But as you say, I guess it could equally well've been any of the others...

If you fail to lubricate even modern all-brass Snider cases when resizing to reload the case, tearing off the thin rim on trying to retract from the die is still a risk - until you find the workaround .

Regards,

MikB

[MikB]

Mik - I am not sure whether the copper wash was applied early in the drawing process in WWI, but it certainly was later. Also, I don't know of any cartridge drawing process that was carried out wet, but I would be interested to hear of any.

Hey, sorry, I don't either. It just seems practical under factory conditions to do that kind of work flooded with lubricant. Considering the number and severity of drawings there must've been (and I've seen the stages a brass 303 went through) I wouldn't've thought a thin copper wash would survive more than one or two drawings at the most. But I'm happy to stand corrected.

Regards,

MikB

[TonyE]

Returning to the original post regarding Haig's use of the term "iron", it suddenly occurred to me that I should have posted a detail that is glaringly obvious!

Normal WWI German 7.92mm cartridge cases include "S67" in the headstamp, indicating an "S" type case made from brass with a 67% copper content. Steel WWI cases have instead either "E" or "SE" with the "E" representing "Eisen"...

....and of course eisen is German for IRON.

Mik - As I say, I am unsure about WWI production, but when Germay reintroduced steel cases in the late 1930s the steel stock from which the blanks were punched was copper plated on both sides. This survived the drawing process so that the finished case was coppered both inside and out. It was then copper plated again to cover any nicks or scores in the case to protect it from corrosion and to lubricate the case for good extraction.

Regards

TonyE

[Old Tom]

A very intgeresting thread! May I pose a few questions?

It seems that steel has been used for many years. Would its use in Germany in WW1 have been due to the effectiveness of the blockade? Given the copper 'plating' described were the steel cartridges less effective? or more or less expensive?

Old Tom

[Cnock]

Hi,

I have not only seen German steel cases for artillery shells but also steel cases with brass bottom end.

Cnock

[centurion]

A very intgeresting thread! May I pose a few questions?

It seems that steel has been used for many years. Would its use in Germany in WW1 have been due to the effectiveness of the blockade? Given the copper 'plating' described were the steel cartridges less effective? or more or less expensive?

Old Tom

Probably. Before the war the Central Powers (Germany & the KuK) imported between 30 to 40% of their copper. With the war the demand for copper soared whilst imports effectively ceased. Germany had stockpiled metals (including copper) before the outbreak of war but this only partly cushioned them up to the end of 1915. To conserve copper for war use it was replaced or with drawn elsewhere so that for example coins containing copper were withdrawn from circulation and replaced with zinc and iron ones and copper sulphate sprays used in agriculture were withdrawn entirely (this latter led to major food shortages due to an outbreak of the potato blight [the same fungus that caused the great Irish famine] and the 'turnip winter).

The optimum brass for use in cartridges is defined in industry documentation as CuZn30 (actually called cartridge brass) - ie 70% copper 30% zinc - if as Tony has said Germany was using CuZn33 I wonder if this reflects an attempt to be economic with copper.

Steel cartridges do have problems, they can become brittle in low temperatures when brass remains malleable (so probably a no no on the Eastern Front in winter). I believe there are issues with their expansion on firing and subsequent contraction which could cause extraction problems. They corrode (rust) which may be the reason for the copper wash.

[TonyE]

Yes, this was due to copper shortages. Prior to the war the standard German cartridge brass contained 72% copper, but in February 1915 the Prussian War Ministry lowered the specification to 67% and cartridges made from this material had "67" included in the headstamp.

Similarly, pre-war bullet cores were made from 97.5% Lead, 2.5% antimony (Hard lead) but in 1915 the antimony was omitted due to shortages and cores were made of pure lead (soft lead). German manufacturers who stamped the base of their bullets with a Gothic identification letter on hard lead cores used Roman letters on soft lead cores and vice versa.

The standard British brass specification for the manufacture of cartridges was simply "65 to 70 parts Copper".

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

One reason why CuZn30 is called cartridge brass is because that particular alloy is the easiest to use in the extrusion process used to make cartridges and still provides a reasonable expansion/contraction in the chamber when fired (combining good gas sealing with ease of extraction). The somewhat loose seeming British specification seems to be saying to manufacturers "provided that the cartridge is adequate when fired we'll leave it up to you to balance cost of materials with ease (cost) of production". (I believe that in WW2 a stricter CuZn30 specification was insisted on - but I could be mistaken). The pre war German standard seems to favour ease of production over "a reasonable expansion/contraction in the chamber", albeit slightly.