8-inch howitzer or 6-inch Mk XIX gun ?

[RodB]

The IWM labels the below as a 6-inch gun of 3 Heavy Battery, circa. 1938. I believe the British still had a few 6-inch Mk XIX guns remaining from World War I, mounted on 8-inch howitzer carriages. They also had 8-inch Mk VIII howitzers from WWI on the same carriages. The barrel looks far too short for a gun to me, this looks like an 8-inch howitzer.

Any suggestions on identification ?

[nigelfe]

In 1938 3 Hy Bty was in 1 Hy Regt stationed at the Citadel in Plymouth. As far as I can judge (based on the guns lost in France), the regiment had 2x4 6 in Guns and 2x4 8 in Hows, all pneumatic tyres. Having looked at several photos I think it could be a 6 in, but the perspective is difficult.

[Khaki]

I think the camera depth perception suggests the barrel is shorter than it really is, I would say it probably is as the IWM label suggests a 6".

khaki

[GRANVILLE]

For what its worth Dinky Toys produced this gun referring to it as a 7.2" Howitzer.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DINKY-TOYS-No-693-7-2-HOWITZER-GUN-VN-MIB-/300604275040?pt=UK_ToysGames_DiecastVehicles_DiecastVehicles_JN&hash=item45fd693960#ht_781wt_944

Dave Upton

[centurion]

For what its worth Dinky Toys produced this gun referring to it as a 7.2" Howitzer.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DINKY-TOYS-No-693-7-2-HOWITZER-GUN-VN-MIB-/300604275040?pt=UK_ToysGames_DiecastVehicles_DiecastVehicles_JN&hash=item45fd693960#ht_781wt_944

Dave Upton

Still have one (although with out the box unfortunately). I believe that the "8" inch needed ramped chocks to supplement the recoil so the photo is likely to be the 6 inch

[johnreed]

I think that the gun is a 7.2 in Howitzer Mk 6 or 7, Centurian is quite right about the use of ramps, the recoil system was not fully up to its job especially when firing a full charge as even when using ramps, the recoil was so fierce that it had a tendancy rear upwards and jump back and sometimes the gun jumped over the ramps. I would say that the picture was taken during training in WW2 as the gun crew are dressed in coveralls doing kneeling gun drill and the way the gun stores are laid out so neatly.

John

[centurion]

I think that the gun is a 7.2 in Howitzer Mk 6 or 7, Centurian is quite right about the use of ramps, the recoil system was not fully up to its job especially when firing a full charge as even when using ramps, the recoil was so fierce that it had a tendancy rear upwards and jump back and sometimes the gun jumped over the ramps.

Which is how Gunner Milligan met Private Seacombe. Spike's gun leapt its ramps and rolled away down a slope behind the gun position into an infantry camp with Spike in hot pursuit. Spike's first words to Neddy were "Did you see a gun go past here?" - the rest, to use a tired old cliche, is history.

[RodB]

If Nigel's right about this particular regiment's guns, it is either an 8-inch how or a 6-inch gun. Are you saying that chocks were only necessary for the howitzer, not the gun ? If so, then this would seem to be a gun. What would end the debate would be a side-on photo and/or one showing a shell from the same sequence.

thanks

Rod

[nigelfe]

7.2 wasn't developed until afer Dunkirk, basically it was an 8 inch with a lined down barrel, see http://nigelef.tripod.com/72inchsheet.htm page of my web site. Most 7.2 barrels were lined down from 8 inch, but UK stocks were small and I assume they used 8 inch barrels provided under lend lease. Same with carriages, UK stocks of 6in G/8 How were low and presumably 8 in carriages were provided under lend lease.

Scotches were only needed with higher charges. The WW1 Vickers platforms don't seem to have been used in WW2, hence the use of Scotches. I think Scotches may have been used sometimes in WW1 instead of the Vickers platform, which took a few hours to install.

[RodB]

I suppose the special Vickers platform was usable in the peculiar siege warfare sitation of WWI, which the British were keen to avoid repeating in WWII... yet all the photos of the early 8-inch howitzers in WWI (the naval gun conversions) show them with chocks, and they appear to have got the job done. So was the Vickers platform an attempt to remedy design error in the new 8-inch howitzer carriage which chocks alone could not address, and become redundant when design flaws were rectified in later carriage models ?

[nigelfe]

I've yet to locate an illustration of a Vickers platform, so I'm not really sure what it did and if the gun was secured to it. My guess is that it provided something solid to work on and the gun was in some way fixed to it, how this affected carriage traverse I've no idea. The 1930s HB doesn't mention it as I recall.

[RodB]

I've found another slightly more side-on photo from the same IWM series, dated November 1939, Larkhill :

This definitely looks like an 8-inch howitzer, and it's of 5 heavy battery. Anybody know what they had ?

Also, here's some diagrams of the Vickers platform :

And here's an Australian 8-inch howitzer mounted on a Vickers platform, 1917 :

[nigelfe]

Yes, I agree that photo is better and the barrel is nowhere near long enough for 6 inch, a photo with shells would confirm it because they're much easier to size. The Aust gun is an earlier Mk hence the short barrel. Interestingly the 1939 trail still has the pinions for the Vickers platform, which might suggest they were still available, although the Weights and Measures table from the 1932 HB for gun on Mk VIIA travelling carriage doesn't mention it.