Guest sjhnumber1 Posted 27 November , 2011 Share Posted 27 November , 2011 I have found this photo in my grandmother's (Mary Charlotte Howgate 1923-1990) collection, but need help in identifying the uniformed subjects. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19119780/1921-10-21%20Unknown%20Howgate.jpg http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19119780/1921-10-21%20Unknown%20Howgate%20Reverse.jpg The photo (a carte postale) is dated in pencil on the reverse 21/10/1921. I suspect that one or both of the men are her uncles (Howgate or Sparkes) from Liverpool. All assistance in identifying the uniform and regiment would be most appreciated. Best regards Stephen Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob B Posted 27 November , 2011 Share Posted 27 November , 2011 A bit stuck no insignia to go on. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 November , 2011 Share Posted 27 November , 2011 I have found this photo in my grandmother's (Mary Charlotte Howgate 1923-1990) collection, but need help in identifying the uniformed subjects. http://dl.dropbox.co...n%20Howgate.jpg http://dl.dropbox.co...e%20Reverse.jpg The photo (a carte postale) is dated in pencil on the reverse 21/10/1921. I suspect that one or both of the men are her uncles (Howgate or Sparkes) from Liverpool. All assistance in identifying the uniform and regiment would be most appreciated. Best regards Stephen Howard They are both in khaki drill (KD) uniforms, which indicates that they are in a hot foreign climate, but as Rob says, with no visible insignia (they probably have shoulder titles, but out of shot), it is not possible to ID their unit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 28 November , 2011 Share Posted 28 November , 2011 Stephen Not 100% certain but I am fairly sure these men are MGC I (Machine Gun Corps Infantry). The man on the right is carrying an entrenching tool handle in a bayonet frog instead of strapped alongside the bayonet scabbard by a double-loop arrangement, as the infantry normally wore it. MGC I carried the entrenching tool handle in the bayonet frog in place of the bayonet, which they were not issued with. As far as I know they were the only units to be so equipped. A title is visible on the other man's shoulder strap. It can't be properly made out but it certainly looks like a plain brass MGC. Regards, W. Add: If one of the men is Howgate, this is probably him as there's only one MGC Howgate in the medal index cards: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=3144130&queryType=1&resultcount=1 Not too many Sparkes either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipperary Posted 28 November , 2011 Share Posted 28 November , 2011 Stephen Not 100% certain but I am fairly sure these men are MGC I (Machine Gun Corps Infantry). The man on the right is carrying an entrenching tool handle in a bayonet frog instead of strapped alongside the bayonet scabbard by a double-loop arrangement, as the infantry normally wore it. MGC I carried the entrenching tool handle in the bayonet frog in place of the bayonet, which they were not issued with. I think you can make out entrenching tool handle on man seated as well.john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 November , 2011 Share Posted 29 November , 2011 These men could indeed be MGC, just as they could be any other unit, although the names and MIC links could help enormously to clinch things, especially if the surnames turn out to be uncommon. Turning to the uniform. Anyone examining the photo can see that the angle of the shoulder straps towards the camera makes it physically (and optically) impossible to identify the titles as 'MGC', or indeed any other configuration. To pretend otherwise is, at best, misleading. Finally, it is worth bearing in mind that it was in standing orders for infantry battalions in India to carry entrenching tool helves in their bayonet frogs when dressed and equipped for internal security (anti-riot) duties, whereby the helves were used as improvised batons. I do not know however, whether the photo was taken in India, or Mesopotamia/Egypt. The latter seems the most logical, as French words were more likely to appear on the rear of a photo there than in India, where English was the norm. Given the contradictions and difficulties outlined, I feel that rob had it spot on and beyond contradiction when he said "a bit stuck with no insignia to go on". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 29 November , 2011 Share Posted 29 November , 2011 My post is not "at best, misleading". I am merely pointing to evidence that suggests MGC as a possiblity. I should perhaps have been more specific in my wording and said that the title looks to me as if it might be MGC. It is impossible to positively ID those titles and I am not claiming otherwise. As Frogsmile has correctly indicated, French is unlikely on an Indian postcard, plus the men are wearing the British-made simplified KD whereas in India the Indian pattern KD would almost certainly have been worn. Which would rather point to them not being in India, which in turn would rather point to them being MGC on the basis of how they are equipped. So to me, that's the way the evidence is tending. Evidence is all it is, but hopefully it may prove useful in confirming or eliminating the men's names if personal details can be obtained from MICs or service records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 30 November , 2011 Share Posted 30 November , 2011 What is displayed in the bottom right corner of the first photo? Is it headdress of some sort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 1 December , 2011 Share Posted 1 December , 2011 What is displayed in the bottom right corner of the first photo? Is it headdress of some sort? I think it's just damage to the photo BB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 1 December , 2011 Share Posted 1 December , 2011 Right you are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sjhnumber1 Posted 3 December , 2011 Share Posted 3 December , 2011 I just wanted to thank everyone for their contributions, which have shed some light on the characters in the photo - as yet unidentifiable. Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 3 December , 2011 Share Posted 3 December , 2011 From a detached viewpoint, the evidence for 'MGC hot climate not India probably Egypt' would be enough in law to make a civil case conviction possible, but not before a criminal case jury. Which I think is as far as Wainfleet wanted to go, anyway. I would not have got that far, just said "I dunno". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 4 December , 2011 Share Posted 4 December , 2011 From a detached viewpoint, the evidence for 'MGC hot climate not India probably Egypt' would be enough in law to make a civil case conviction possible, but not before a criminal case jury. Which I think is as far as Wainfleet wanted to go, anyway. I would not have got that far, just said "I dunno". Correct, and thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 5 December , 2011 Share Posted 5 December , 2011 I note the last post here has been deleted? Another case of not "engaging brain before opening mouth"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now