Dating a pre war photo

[4thGordons]

I just purchased the attached photo.

I was hoping some of the experts might be able to pin down a date for me based on the pattern of jacket (with braid/cord epaulettes), cloth shoulder insignia and perhaps some of the other elements on show.

The belt buckles show IV which is actually a new one to me - so I am trying to work out if this is the IVth Volunteer Battalion Gordons or the later 4th Battalion T/F?

I suspect (unfortunately!) the former. I have pictures dating from 1909 and by that point the jackets appear to have cloth epaulettes and metal shoulder titles appear to be worn (also for a short period shields as on the sporran worn as collar badges)

So it is possible to put a "not before"/"not after" date on this, please?

And any suggestions as to the medal (worn rather high!)

Thanks

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

I just purchased the attached photo.

I was hoping some of the experts might be able to pin down a date for me based on the pattern of jacket (with braid/cord epaulettes), cloth shoulder insignia and perhaps some of the other elements on show.

The belt buckles show IV which is actually a new one to me - so I am trying to work out if this is the IVth Volunteer Battalion Gordons or the later 4th Battalion T/F?

I suspect (unfortunately!) the former. I have pictures dating from 1909 and by that point the jackets appear to have cloth epaulettes and metal shoulder titles appear to be worn (also for a short period shields as on the sporran worn as collar badges)

So it is possible to put a "not before"/"not after" date on this, please?

And any suggestions as to the medal (worn rather high!)

Thanks

Chris

It's a volunteer battalion (4th) of Gordon Highlanders between 1902 and 1903, as indicated by the twisted cord shoulder strap that came into use for a short time before fixed straps were used. You can they they are volunteers by the sergeants proficiency star above the three stripes at left and the cloth badge with 'V' and number on it below his shoulder title (also cloth until 1907-08). The man at far right is the Bandmaster, who was a warrant officer (one of two in the battalion) and you can see that he has a sword belt with trailing slings to mark his status. As well as his swagger stick, note the bandmaster's badge on his left sleeve (lyre beneath a crown), there is another on his right sleeve. The other men are all wearing the dark brown leather variant of the waist belt for the 1888 Slade Wallace pattern of Valise equipment. Notice also the difference in the cantle between the senior NCOs at far left and right respectively and the three men in the centre.

The 4th VB of the Gordons was previously the 1st Aberdeenshire Rifle Volunteer Corps and although no black buttons are worn from 1881, you can see a last vestige of the previous Rifles dress in the snake shaped buckle on the Bandmaster's sword belt.

I cannot help with the medal.

[4thGordons]

Thanks for confirming that.

Do you have any idea about what is apparently a sleeve patch (right sleeve) on the man, second from the right next to the band master?

Chris

[dundeesown]

It maybe the coronation of Edward V11,that looks like him on the flag behind the lads.

Gary

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for confirming that.

Do you have any idea about what is apparently a sleeve patch (right sleeve) on the man, second from the right next to the band master?

Chris

The patch is a qualified bandsman's badge of a lyre, Chris. The two men at far right are both the in the band, the three at left it would appear not

[Ken Lees]

The medal is probably the Volunteer Force Long Service medal. The one below is the EdVII version but the Victoria one was the same except for the monarch's image.

[4thGordons]

The medal is probably the Volunteer Force Long Service medal. The one below is the EdVII version but the Victoria one was the same except for the monarch's image.

Thanks, Frogsmile and Ken.

Ken, is the position for wearing that medal shown in the picture normal or just an idiosyncrasy?

Thanks again,

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks, Frogsmile and Ken.

Ken, is the position for wearing that medal shown in the picture normal or just an idiosyncrasy?

Thanks again,

Chris

Chris, If you don't mind me answering your query, the wearing of medals higher up on the chest was common at that time and it was only once jackets with chest pockets became common (as opposed to frocks) that the medals became aligned with the seam of the flap. It is notable that the Royal Navy has retained the higher position that was once the practice of both Services.