L/CPL HARRY BULL - KING'S (LIVERPOOL) REGIMENT

[silkman3811]

I'm hoping someone will be able to shed some light on the following soldier who died 01/08/1917 and is remembered on the Menin Gate memorial at Ypres.

According to his record in "UK SOLDIERS DIED IN THE GREAT WAR 1914-19" he originally served with The Cheshire Regiment as 4078 Private Harry Bull, before joining 17th Battalion, The King's (Liverpool) Regiment, as 49138 Private Harry Bull. He was subsequently promoted to Lance Corporal.

His Medal Index Card only shows details of his King's service, whilst his service record does not appear in the "Burnt Records".

1) Would his Cheshire Regiment service have been before the war?

2) Bearing in mind he was born and lived in the Macclesfield area, why would he have joined 17th (Service) Battalion, King's Regt. which was the 1st City "Pals" battalion in Liverpool?

As always, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

cheers

Steve

[Ian Riley]

The answer is possibly that he did not get a lot of choice.

By April 1917, it would appear that quite a few 'foreigners' were being drafted into the Liverpool Pals (17th, 18th, 19th and 20th King's (Liverpool Regiment). I was looking at this quite closely last year when someone asked me why there was a Liverpool Pal commemorated on a remote Highland War Memorial. Some analysis of Soldiers Died seems to show that quite a few casualties from 1917 onward had started their service in various cyclist units (and other units), in this case the Highland Cyclists so the composition of the battalions was becoming more diverse. Soldiers returning from the |UK having been wounded (or even on leave) could find themselves drafted to quite different units and drafdts going out as reinforcements could sufddenly find thems elves shunted off elsewhere. It is just posible that the War Diary of 17 KLR reports a draft of soldiers arriving from the Cheshire Regiment

The Pals reserve training organisation seems to have been quite limited and, for instance, in September 1917, 18 KLR was reinforced with over 300 officers and soldiers from the Lancashire Hussars

Beyond the introduction of conscription in 1916 and the revision of training arrangements in the UK, recruits in 'local' regiments can have a much wider origin though some small scale sampling (100 soldiers from each type of battalion) using 'Born' or 'Residence' information from Soldiers Died seems to show that a fair proportion of soldiers in the KLR (a majority was indicated) retained some sort of local association (if for instance you count St Helens as local to Liverpool!) across the range of Regular, Territorial and Service battalions throughout the war.

I think if the Cheshire Regiment did not appear on ther MIC, then he did not serfve overseas with them - the number 4078 looks like a Territorial number. If he joined the local Territorial battalion for Macclesfield, it might be possible to work out roughly when he joined from the sequence.

Ian

Ian

[IPT]

As a complete amateur, i'm a bit suspicious of that Cheshire Regiment number. It seems very low for a man who was 17 at outbreak of war.

Perhaps a digit missing?

[silkman3811]

I agree - the Cheshire service number does seem low in view of his age...

As a complete amateur, i'm a bit suspicious of that Cheshire Regiment number. It seems very low for a man who was 17 at outbreak of war.

Perhaps a digit missing?

[sw63]

I don't know for sure but I think that Harry Bull joined 17th Service Battalion of the King's Liverpool Regt sometime around November 1916, judging from his service number. The lower 49*** draft numbers start to appear as casualties at this time:

49244 Phillipson, WS (18th Btn) died 26/11/16 being the earliest I can find.

That is, assuming transfers from other regiments were allotted service numbers alongside drafts of new troops from the UK... I don't know for sure but I am speculating that they were.

The 17th Btn had taken a mauling on the 12th October at Flers, where they lost 94 killed or died of wounds and 235 wounded or missing. They were moved to a position opposite Bienvillers and Berles at the end of October, where they received fresh men. I think Harry Bull joined them at this time.

Simon

PS - No pre-war service that I could find.

[Hywyn]

Re the Cheshire number being low. It is highly likely to be a TF unit number. A quick look shows Thomas Clarke 4074 in 7th Cheshires enlisted 11/11/1915. Thomas Leonard 4077 in 6th Cheshires 27th Feb 1915. Probably more if 406* 405* 408* was searched

Hywyn