high wood Posted 22 November , 2011 Share Posted 22 November , 2011 This photograph taken at Coles Royal Studios in London shows a young soldier wearing a circular badge on either sleeve above his lance corporal's stripe. He is wearing "rifle" buttons and I had thought he might be from one of the battalions of the London Regiment but the circular badges bear no resemblance to any of the london regiment sleeve badges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 22 November , 2011 Author Share Posted 22 November , 2011 In a later photograph taken in France he is no longer wearing the sleeve badges but his mates have visible cap badges which may or may not be, 8th london, 17th London, 19th London or Rifle Brigade amongst others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 November , 2011 Share Posted 23 November , 2011 This photograph taken at Coles Royal Studios in London shows a young soldier wearing a circular badge on either sleeve above his lance corporal's stripe. He is wearing "rifle" buttons and I had thought he might be from one of the battalions of the London Regiment but the circular badges bear no resemblance to any of the london regiment sleeve badges. I am sorry that I cannot help, but it certainly is an extremely unusual style of badge and I have never seen anything like it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 23 November , 2011 Share Posted 23 November , 2011 Certainly seems to be wearing Rifle buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 23 November , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 November , 2011 Well I knew that I had never seen similar circular insignia before but I hadn't realised that they were that unusual. It is unfortunate that the shoulder titles are not visible/being worn as they would at least point us in the right direction. I think that it also may be significant that the insignia were being worn at home but not in France on the simplified tunic. There seems to be a circle of material of a slightly different colour inside the outer material unless it is a trick of the light. The answer must be out there somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex falbo Posted 23 November , 2011 Share Posted 23 November , 2011 Do you have a date for when the photo was taken? I remembered that Chappell's Battle Insignia book had a plate with a stretcher bearer wearing a 'C' shape insignia on the upper sleeve. According to the book, the tape was stitched on just before the July 1 offensive in order to identify the Seaforth Highlanders. It is interesting that the orientation of the patches for your photo and the Seaforths is the same albiet your fellow's patch is considerably smaller. And as just a second opinion, I'm almost certain its the lighting regarding the inner colours. You can see the contours of the fabric manipulate the studio lighting on his right arm (his orientation). The other sleeve is quite straight and the light is pretty consistent showing that the center is the same colour as the SD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 23 November , 2011 Author Share Posted 23 November , 2011 Sadly, I don't have a date for the photograph but I would guess that it dates from about 1915. There is something very "territoral" about the uniform in that it reminds me of a photograph that I have of some soldiers in the 6th London Regiment which is of course particulary meaningless in that it proves nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 24 November , 2011 Share Posted 24 November , 2011 Surely the first photo is the later one? He is a Lce/Cpl there, whilst in the other photo he is a private. It's a reasonable guess that he is still in the same unit, which does look to be London TA given that the badge is evidently not white metal RB. Add: He's probably home on leave in the first photo. I've never seen the strange arm badge before either but would guess it is a battalion identifier from around 1915-1916, probably something shortlived that never got recorded. If you could locate Coles studios, you might make a reasonable guess at the London unit, assuming that TA men in those days tended to live or work close to its HQ. If you then located a battalion history - which someone on here must have - you might or might not get lucky with the sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 24 November , 2011 Share Posted 24 November , 2011 If you could locate Coles studios City Road, EC1. GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 24 November , 2011 Share Posted 24 November , 2011 Could be the 8th Londons (Post Office Rifles)... the 19th Londons (St Pancras).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 24 November , 2011 Share Posted 24 November , 2011 City Road, EC1. GT. ...which is immediately adjacent to Bunhill Row, the headquarters of the 8th Londons. Circumstantial evidence only, but quite strong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 24 November , 2011 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2011 ...which is immediately adjacent to Bunhill Row, the headquarters of the 8th Londons. Circumstantial evidence only, but quite strong! Ahem, Coles Royal Studios 113 City Road, E.C. and 90 High Street, Kingsland, N.E. and 82 High Street, Peckham, S.E. and 192 High Road, Kilburn and 143 High Road, Ilford according to the back of the post card. As to the Lance Corporal's stripe I don't think that it proves much about the order in which the photographs were taken as a single stripe was probably easier to lose than gain. I was thinking more about the style of uniforms as a clue to sequence as the earlier issue tunic is being worn in London and the simplified tunic in France. I like the Post Office Rifles theory and it is a great shame that no shoulder titles are visible in either photograph. That said, the 1/8th battalion London Regiment wore a yellow club as in the playing card and the 2/8th wore a dark blue rectangle rather than something that looks like a fried onion ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainfleet Posted 25 November , 2011 Share Posted 25 November , 2011 I was thinking more about the style of uniforms as a clue to sequence as the earlier issue tunic is being worn in London and the simplified tunic in France. The type of tunic isn't a reliable guide to the photo sequence. Both types are seen in photographs any time up to 1917, when simplifieds start to peter out. To my mind the available evidence points, if it points anywhere, to the "standard" tunic photo being later because of the stripe, but I won't die in a ditch over that. The patch is typical of the amateurish identifiers sometimes worn in F&F in the late 1915 - 1916 period. It seems unlikely have been put up before leaving England, as these things were only needed once men got to the front, for easy identification of troops under difficult circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 November , 2011 Share Posted 25 November , 2011 As to the Lance Corporal's stripe I don't think that it proves much about the order in which the photographs were taken as a single stripe was probably easier to lose than gain. Yes, I agree. A single stripe within the infantry was an appointment rather than a substantive rank which could be and often was awarded temporarily for a specific task or period. In civilian parlance it marked a man as a 'trusty' who could be relied upon to organise and supervise others for minor tasks requiring small teams of individuals. It was also used to test a man (i.e. a form of probation) to see if he was suitable for promotion to the (first) substantive rank of Corporal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex falbo Posted 29 November , 2011 Share Posted 29 November , 2011 For what its worth, this was the illustration I was referring to. Battle patches are an incredibly tricky subject! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 29 November , 2011 Share Posted 29 November , 2011 Are you sure that its the same person in both photographs? various features, eg., chin shape, ears etc look different to me. Maybe its the studio lighting but to me although they are similar (related?) the difference was the first thing I noticed. Sorry can't help with the badges. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 30 November , 2011 Share Posted 30 November , 2011 What about 58th (London) Division? Tower (of London) in a circle; there appears to be a "device" of some sort in the centre of the arm badge.The lighter coloured circle could be a brigade identifier? This would seem to make the regiment, from the cap badge, the 2/6th (City of London)battalion (Rifles). The 2/17th and 2/19th, with similar cap badges, were in the 60th London Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipperary Posted 30 November , 2011 Share Posted 30 November , 2011 (edited) Are you sure that its the same person in both photographs? various features, eg., chin shape, ears etc look different to me. Maybe its the studio lighting but to me although they are similar (related?) the difference was the first thing I noticed. Sorry can't help with the badges. khaki If as i take it to be the chap is the right hand seated guy i think he is the same as first post.john having said that i think he has aged or grown weary by the second pic Edited 30 November , 2011 by munster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 30 November , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 November , 2011 Exactly as Munster says and undoubtedly the same man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex falbo Posted 30 November , 2011 Share Posted 30 November , 2011 By chance would know if the gentleman had been to France already at the time the patch photo was taken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 30 November , 2011 Share Posted 30 November , 2011 Gratuitously, it is not one of the fifty or so official issue trade, appointment, skill-at-arms or prize badges either current 1914 or introduced during the war. The material seems to have a hollow centre. The badge looks for all the world like a doughnut or a bagel, in material which, when sewn, is susceptible to gathering. In that it is on both arms it seems even to be unlikely as a "battle patch" or formation sign. Quite the most interesting and mysterious one I have seen for yonks. Oh! for colour! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 30 November , 2011 Author Share Posted 30 November , 2011 It's not a bad set of postcards is it? Amazing what tat you can pick up at car boot sales. Seriously, there is no detail as to when the photographs were taken. The group photograph is a typical French carte postale taken in a village probably just behind the lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khaki Posted 1 December , 2011 Share Posted 1 December , 2011 Sorry people' i was looking at the wrong person (the enlarged photo post #2), I had not looked at the soldier seated right. I must pay more attention. khaki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high wood Posted 1 December , 2011 Author Share Posted 1 December , 2011 No worries. I posted the enlargement of the other chap because he was wearing his cap badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spider5521 Posted 2 December , 2011 Share Posted 2 December , 2011 Exactly as Munster says and undoubtedly the same man. Completely irrelevant I know but look in his eyes..... one is of a happy smiling young guy the other is of a man who has seen things no man should see, so the simpler uniform is definately later. is it possible that the ring is a band insignia of some sort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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