MGC Cavalry

[jay dubaya]

Steven, Martin, many thanks for the continued input. I did wonder about the caption in the above photo 'nobody knows, nobody cares' and the text from Wedgewood Benn would seem to fit the bill. The notes on the use of the Hotchkiss make interesting reading as I know next to nothing regarding the use of this weapon,

cheers, Jon

[mcassell]

The YH section was attatched on 29th Feb 1916, the day the 8th MG Sqdn was formed at Marant, Lt T. Preston was also attatched on this date.

Mike, I've started on the QOOH numbers and have found the odd EY man numbered 51488 and also 2 QOOH men with the same number (51574 - S.A Jennings and G Butlet)

Jon

Jon

I am interested in a reference for the incorporation of the YH MG Section into 8 Squadron on 29 February 1916 as a synopsis I have of the Squadron War Diary (I have to admit to not having a copy of the original) states Lt. D.N. Garstin, 2Lt. H.C. Fewster and 70 ORs came from 10 Hussars (Nos. 3 and 4 sections), Lts. Preston and Batters and 66 ORs came from the Essex Y (Nos 5 and 6 sections), and Captain J.D. Deane-Drummond (original OC), Lieutenants D.R. Trefusis and A.T. Wilcox and 67 ORs from the Royal Horse Guards formed the Squadron at Marant. The RHG men (Nos. 1 and 2 sections) went to 7 Squadron on 1 October 1916 and were replaced by 2Lieuts. B.B. Griffin and W.G. Wakefield and 62 ORs from the Leicestershire Yeomanry. So my reading of the 68 transfers from the Essex Yeomanry is that Lieutenant Batters and 26 ORs came from the Essex Yeomanry, Lieutenant Preston and 25 or 26 ORs came from the YH, and the remaining 14-15 men came from both EY and YH???. As I said in a previous posting, the vast majority of the YH men you identified only got the BWM and VM indicating they did not serve in 1915 ( Lieutenant Preston is an exception, landing in France on 17 April 1915) so presumably the YH MG section went to France in January or February 1916??

I should mention that associating cavalry/yeomanry men with the 1001-- series of numbers and specific squadrons is fraught with difficulties. These numbers were issued to the first draft of reinforcements for MGC (Cavalry) in 1917; while a few men were recovered wounded from regular cavalry or 1st line yeomanry regiments most were men from 3rd line yeomanry regiments. I have the 1917 diary of 100101 SSM J.J. Bullock formerly of the SNH, and he (who , as far as I can tell, was not associated previously with the SNH MG Section) records taking a draft of reinforcements " from every British cavalry regiment' to the MGC (Cavalry) depot in France on 8 May 1917.

[pmaasz]

The Naval and Military Press publishes a reprint of the "Complete Guide to the Hotchkiss Machine Gun" (sic). It includes instruction on how it is used by infantry and cavalry during attack and withdrawal.

[Steven Broomfield]

The Naval and Military Press publishes a reprint of the "Complete Guide to the Hotchkiss Machine Gun" (sic). It includes instruction on how it is used by infantry and cavalry during attack and withdrawal.

Thanks for that; I didn't know. Looks like a good use for any Xmas present money ...

[jay dubaya]

so presumably the YH MG section went to France in January or February 1916??

No, I've just had a look back through the EY war diary transcript that I have and I quote:

29/5/15 Following officers and men embussed at 11.30 to proceed to trenches, Maj Buxton, Capt Proby, 2nd Lieut Buxton, 2nd Lieut Tufnell and Lieut White (RAMC).

45 OR's from A Sqn

35 OR's from B Sqn

40 OR's from C Sqn

10 OR's from machine gun section

Ypres

This party went as a Squadron and on arrival at debussing point was attached to 7th Cav Bde. They marched from Vlamertinghe to the ramparts at Ypres between the Sallyport the Pont-de Lille. Machine gun section was attached to 2nd Life Guards and marched to trenches E of Zillebeke. MG section of Yorkshire Hussars (Lieut Preston and 26 men) joined B Echelon and were attached for duty and rations.

4/6/15 B Echelon. Inspection of Yorkshire Hussars detachment 10.30am. Inspection of B Sqn horses 2.30pm.

5/6/15 Relieved at 4pm by HAC. Marched to B huts at Vlamertinghe and slept there. B Echelon inspected by CO of horses of A and C Sqns.

SSM's Driver and Archer discharged on receiving commissions in 3/1st EY.

Blaringhem

7/6/15 Maj Buxton assumed command of C Sqn.

Lieut Preston assumed command of MG Sections

Jon

[mcassell]

Thanks for the excellent reply! Things seem much clearer now. So, of the men of the YH you listed transferring to 8 Squadron, Lieutenant Preston, and ORs Bond, Collins, Curphy, Dalby, Horsefield, Hutchinson, Nettleton and Ratcliffe were probably part of the original MG Section - all got 1914-15 stars and arrived circa 17 April 1915. The remaining men probably came as reinforcements/replacements in early 1916.

My main interest in all this has been its relation to a long term project of mine identifying men of the pre-war MG sections of Cavalry and Yeomanry regiments. It is quite remarkable how few - in most cases less than 30% - of the original MG section members made it into MGC (Cavalry) and it would appear that the YH MG section was no exception.

[mcassell]

Here is my listing for the Essex Yeomanry MG Section transferred to 8 Squadron in February 1916:

51488 BLAKE, Farrier Sergeant William S. (915) 30/11/14 8 Squadron Farrier Sergeant

51506 TOZER, Sergeant John R. (942) MM for Monchy 11 April 1917 (LG 26 May 1917) 29/11/14

51508 ALEN, Private Louis William (1160); later Lieutenant MGC 29/11/14

51507 MUGFORD, Private Harold (852) VC 29/11/14

51509 ARROL, Private James Harding (1440) Killed 11 April 1917; 13/2/15

51510 ASH, Private Ernest (1111) 29/11/14

51511 BARKHAM, Private Stanley (1824) 8/11/15

51512 BUTLER, Private Frank (789) 29/11/14

51513 CATTON, Private George (2482) KIA 31 July 1916 1916

51514 COLE, Private Frank (968) 5/6/15

51515 COTTIS, Sergeant Frederick W. (2479) 1916

51516 FOSTER, Private Geoffrey C. (1309) Killed 11 April 1917 30/11/14

51517 FRANCIS, Private Henry L. (2304) 1916

51518

51519 GARNETT, Private Clarence H. (1963) 1916

51520 HIBBERD, Private John. M. (1336) 5/6/15

51521 HARRISON, SSM Ninian (2273) MM for 22 March to 6 April 1918 (LG 12 June 1918) 1916

51522 JOHNSON, Ernest M.C. (881) 29/11/14

51523 KING, Private Arthur W. (1498) 5/6/15

51524 MIDDLECOAT, Private George Keith De Blois (1365) 13/2/15

51525 METCALFE, Private William H. (1442) Killed 11 April 1917 25/3/15

51526 OXLEY, Corporal Alfred E. (2483) 1916

51527 SMITH, Private Arthur W. (1869) 8/11/15

51528 STRATHAIRN, Private Thomas S. (1990) 1916

51529 SAVAGE, Private Thomas N. (1283) 29/11/14

51530

51531 TUFFS, Private Harry (2198) 1916

51532 WOODS, Corporal William (1712) 5/6/15

51533 WRIGHT, Shoeing Smith Charles (1052) 29/11/14

51534 WARREN, Private Dugald W. L. (1845) MM for 22 March to 6 April 1918 (LG 16 July 1918)

51535

51536 VANCE, Private John M. (1741) 1916

51537 CLARK, Private Horace (2378) 1916

51538 FOSTER, Private Arnold F. (1936) 1916

51539 SMITH, Lance Corporal Frederick (1701) 1916

51540 FIRMIN, Private Walter (2477) 1916

51541 HAYES, Private George W. (2223) 1916 Wounded 11 April 1917

51542 HURST, Corporal Alan (1231) 29/11/14

51543 JONES, Corporal Gerald George James (1102) Killed 11 April 1917 8/11/15

51544 KERWOOD, Private Sidney (1958) 5/6/15

51545 MARTIN, Private Frank A (1731) 1916

51546 McCARTHY, Private George H. (1209) 29/11/14

JERRARD, Private Richard (982) Killed in action 21 August 1916, Leipzig Salient 30/11/14

LORD, Private Stanley Albert (1752) Killed in action 21 August 1916, Leipzig Salient 8/6/15

Farrier Sergeant Blake was not a member of the MG Section but became the Farrier Sergeant of 8 Squadron. Sergeant Tozer appears to have been the original MG Sergeant and has been identified by a family member as the Sergeant in the posted photograph next to whom I presume to be Lieutenant Batters. My interpretation is that numbers 51506 Tozer to at least 51534 Warren (29 men) were members of the EY MG Section as it stood at the end of February 1916. As can be seen ten men in this range went to France with the MG Section on 29 November 1914. My sense is that the 11 men numbered from 51536 Vance to 51546 McCarthy were additional 'non-MG Section' men brought in to make up a proportional draft: note that 7 of them did not join until 1916. I notice that I have included Private Catton as 51513 though his MIC does not indicate this and I have to admit I cannot find my original hand-written notes that justified his inclusion; he is 'alphabetically' okay but his numbering should be considered speculative. Neither Lord nor Jerrard fit into any obvious alphabetic sequence and my impression is that they were only attached to 8 Squadron.

Overall, we have 29 possible men who came from the Essex Yeomanry MG Section, another 11 from the squadrons of the EY and 25 -26 men from the YH. This is as near as damn it to the 66 ORs listed in 8 Squadron War Diary as forming Nos. 5 and 6 Squadron.

Hope this is of interest

Nice photo gunner and thanks for the input, I'm attemting a little number crunching with the 515?? series which covers both the EY and YH that made up what I believe to be nos. 5 & 6 sections. I suspect that 3 of the 4 of the numbers that appear unnamed may be that of Pte's Catton, Jerrard and Lord all of who had died on the Somme (I only have the 8ths diary upto September 1916 so I'm unsure of Catton). Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Isn't Mugford standing third from left?

Jon

[jay dubaya]

It most certainly is of interest gunner. Having looked at the casualties for the RHG and the 10H for the period between the formation of the squadron and early 1917, it is noted that all those listed are 'attatched' to the squadron (without their new numbers) with the exception of Pte Lord who's only connection (on paper) with the squadron is his date of death and the WD entry for that day. I do however think that Catton, Jerrard and Lord do fit into the number sequence, as for the 4th missing name, could he be a wounded man?

I agree with your reckoning regarding numbers 51506 - 51534 being the original MG section of the EY. Do you have the 8th MG Sqd WD? I only have the diary pages upto September 1916 but would like to see the remaining entries as my interest has now outgrown my initial research into the unit,

cheers, Jon

[mcassell]

Jon

I am a little reluctant to assume the 'attached' men who became casualties were ever in MGC (Cavalry) and hence had MGC numbers. One of the websites with information about Lance Corporal Mugford (Newham's Story) has quotes about the VC action from a Private Harry Finch who, according to his statement, was with Mugford's machine gun section. The only Harry Finch with the Essex Yeomanry I can trace was 1031 who does not appear to have transferred to the MGC (though he later served in the Tank Corps). So, my feeling is that a number of Essex yeomen were attached to 8 Squadron, possibly even serving as gun numbers, but never transferred to MGC (Cavalry). So Jerrard, Lord, etc, may have simply been attached men.

Unfortunately, I only have a short synopsis of 8 Squadron diary - mostly names of officers coming and going. I have a contact who might have a copy and if so will post.

[jay dubaya]

Thanks for the reply gunner. I take your point but I'm somewhat struggling with the term 'attatched' here. I have found the service documents of a RHG man who was 'attatched' to the 8th Sqdn on 31st March 1916, he had qualified as a Machine Gunner. Could it be that men who had previously served with a mother unit but not part of the original MG section be 'attatched' to the brigade MG section. I'm transcribing the pages from the East Ham Echo in which the story is relayed and will post when finished. I note that Finchs' MIC is annotted with 'MM' so I wonder if this was for the same action, I also note that he was one of five related Finchs' who served with the EY.

Jon

[mcassell]

The establishment of a MG Squadron was between 225 and 250 ORs, depending on theatre, so if we take 200 or so transfers from the 10 Hussars, RHG and EY/YH, we have room for another 25-50 men in 8 Squadron. Based on what I have seen in a number of War Diaries, it would appear that men were temporarily attached to make up establishment until replaced by MGC (Cavalry) men from the UK. The attached men then returned to their parent units.

The case of the RHG men posted to 8 Squadron is odd because, as far as I can tell, they never transferred to the MGC either before leaving 8 Squadron on 1 October 1916 or later while they were in 7 Squadron. From the medal rolls I can only find four men of the RHG who got MGC (Cavalry) numbers, three of whom were commissioned and one, 51934 Alfred Rudduck, whose medals were issued from the MGC (Infantry) roll. So one might say that all the RHG MG section men were officially 'attached'.

I guess I picked the wrong Harry Finch! I had assumed it was 1031 H.W. Finch rather than 1032 E.H. Finch who, as 80169 Essex Yeomanry, got the MM (presumably) for Monchy (LG 25 May 1917) though this could have been awarded for service with the Essex Yeomanry rather than attached 8 Squadron. I say this because the 8 Squadron War Diary entry for 3 May 1917 records the awards of the MM to 51506 Sergeant J.R. Tozer, 51547 Corporal H. Curphey, 51196 Lance Corporal R.P. Dorman and 41158 Lance Corporal F.S. Hoskins for the Monchy action on 11 April 1917 but no mention of Finch. Nonetheless, Finch and the others are all LG 25 May 1917. Perhaps the East Ham Echo can give us more information.

[mcassell]

Looking through some of my notes I found a reference to Army Order V (5?) of 1916 dated 9 June 1916 that relates to the compulsory transfer of men from the Brigade MG Squadrons to MGC (Cavalry). It appears in several service records I have looked at as the authority for the official transfer that occurred on 27 June 1916. I have never looked this order up but it may contain the solution to the issue of attached men.

[Guest sheppard]

Gentlemen

I don't know if you are able to help me but John M Vance 51536 MGC was my grandfather.

I know he was with the Essex Yeomanry - Regimental No 1741 and was transferred to the MGC.

My mother who is 88 recalls he served at Ypres and that is it. My grandfather died in 1965 and never talked about the war.

I am interested in anything about him; when he moved to France, where he might have fought, with whom etc. Any photographs etc etc.

I only found the MGC website recently and found the reference in Gunner Parr's email

Any help you can give me would be hugely appreciated.

Thank you

John Sheppard

[eyman]

I can belatedly fill in one gap for certain and propose a credible answer for another. 

51513 was not Catton. The contemporary records retained by Lt Col Whitmore show 51513 Pte C Coote wounded on 11 April 1917. A Pte Coote appears in a picture of the Machine Gun squadron in April 1915 which appears in the Essex Yeomanry Journal for 1957. 

The medal rolls for 1317 Pte Philip Henry Coote, later Labour Corps, show only service in those two units and I had discounted him as being the Machine gunner, despite no evidence of the mysterious 51513 Coote being found elsewhere. Until today. His service records survive and show conclusively that he was 51513 and confirm wounding in the action at Monchy. He was probably the oldest member of the team, being born in late 1870 and therefore 46 in April 1917. 

 

The probable gap filler is Jerrard. Appears in a number of sources as Gerrard, including one of the medal rolls which is corrected; and his name is spelled that way on the memorial in the Cathedral. He is a credible suggestion for 51518, given the rough alphabetic order in this part of the squadron. 

Ian

[jay dubaya]

Many thanks for the update Ian and the confirmation of Cootes’ MGC number, I believe that only leaves 2 possible numbers for my man. Thanks also to those who posted since my last visit to this thread I started nine years ago.

 

Jon

 

 

[eyman]

I can fill another gap. Prompted by a picture of a display of Essex Yeomanry medals at the museum on British Medals Forum, I refreshed my memory of W B R Skinner, 1256 Essex Yeo. He earned the 1914-15 Star trio  as well as Defence and War medals for WW2, and ended up WW1 as 317738, RAF. In common with Coote who ended up with Labour Corps, his sojourn in the 8th Machine Gun Squadron might have been lost to history if it were not for "51530 MGC" being deleted on the BWM/VM roll in WO329/2136. This fits the rough alphabetical order perfectly.

 

So we have only two numbers unaccounted for and, if Jerrard (Gerrard) was 51518, then Lord must have been 51535. That is, assuming that they were allocated MGC numbers between their transfer at the end of Feb 1916 and being killed in July 1916 - the Essex Yeo regimental war diary is v clear that these casualties were with the MG Squadron, but goodness only knows why they don't appear in the rolls under the MGC numbers.

 

Ian

Edited 30 September , 2020 by eyman

[jay dubaya]

Brilliant, many thanks for the update Ian, it’s greatly appreciated. I’ll look back at this and my research when I get a chance later this week.

 

Jon

 

[eyman]

Prompted by my inability to provide a full name for Skinner, I have now managed to track down much more info on him.

William Banks Rea Skinner

Enlisted Essex Yeo 17 Sept 1914 as 1256

His RAF records show that he suffered GSW chest 12.4.17, so another 8th Machine Gun Sqn casualty at Monchy - he served in France from 13 Feb 1915 to 15 April 1917.

Transferred to RAF 23 April 1918 as 317738 for pilot training - he is shown as Pilot Lnr (Learner?), Cdt for Pilot and was graded F/Cadet in Feb 1919 before being discharged in April 1919.

Also found his RA tracer card!

Enlisted as 1466524 on 20 April 1939; to Class Z(T) in August 1945 and discharged for being over age 1954

The 1939 Register shows him as HAC 274 Battery AA...so off to the HAC archivist to see if there are any more records about him!

Finally, his medals including a Masonic War Service Medal were sold as part lot 337, Dix & Webb 5 March 1996

 

Ian