German South West Africa and the Army Ordnance Corps

[Guest wesleym]

Hi everyone,

My name is Wesley Maurice and I am trying to find out what part the (British, not South African) Army Ordnance Corps played in German South West Africa.

The reason for this is because I recently found out that my Great Great grandfather was stationed there with the AOC... and I have no idea what they did there, with whom of for how long.

Any info or guides would be greatly appreciated.

Warm regards,

Wesley

[thesamsonsed@gmail.com]

Hello Wesley

From the bits that I've read and discovered on British involvement in the GSWA campaign, there's not much available. South Africa sent the Imperial troops back to Britain at the start of the war. However, a few people did remain - General Wolfe-Murray who was Commander in Chief took over the role of High Commissioner of the protectorates and Rhodesias until the new Governor General, Lord Buxton arrived in September. There was also Chas Thompson who was responsible for recruitment together with CP Crewe (brother of Lord Crewe).

Colonel PCB Skinner was loaned from the British Government to support Botha and during the GSWA campaign Botha asked him to set up a General Staff. Other than this, the Admiralty seemed to play a strategic part in ordnance for the campaign. The SA War Office consisted of Jan Smuts as Minister of Defence and a civilian, HRM Bourne as Secretary/administrator at the outbreak of war.As a result, Governor General Buxton seemed to play a big role in ensuring the South African's had sufficient ordnance to undertake the campaign and ensuring the British and South African arms spoke to each other.

Does your great great grandfather have the same surname as you? What evidence do you have to indicate he was with the British and not SA Army Ordance Corps? I'm intrigued to hear there was such a corps as it's not featured in any of the original documents or secondary sources I've seen so far in either the UK or SA. I'm heading out to SA next week to do some research in the various archives - mainly on East Africa but GSWA also features so will keep another eye open.

Sorry not to be of more help,

Anne

[bushfighter]

Wesley

Greetings

British detachments fought in the GSWA campaign - Royal Marine Artillery, Royal Artillery, Royal Naval Armoured Cars, Royal Navy ships and personnel - so Ordnance support would have been needed.

The British involvement was not well publicised.

For background to the campaign read Gerald L'Ange's Urgent Imperial Service, and freely download:

http://www.archive.org/details/withbothasmutsin00whitrich

Harry

[jony663]

What were the Royal Naval Armoured Cars using for this campaign?

[bushfighter]

Jony

Greetings

Page 8 of the link in my last post gives brief details, but there is much more for you in the text.

Harry

[thesamsonsed@gmail.com]

Thanks Harry

You've confirmed for me that it was the Admiralty who were the most involved, particularly in the early days (the initial invasion plan had been determined by Smuts (but Botha revised this just before he went in)) and as neither of the two Boer commanders had experience of anything but land war commando style they ignored the Admiralty in their planning. The ADM was only asked at the very last minute to carry out certain tasks not realising the wider implications - Adm King-Hall complained to Buxton on his arrival which is when things started to get sorted. I haven't yet worked out who asked for Josiah Wedgwood's motorised team to go to GSWA initially - it wasn't at the SAfs request.

JJ Collyer has a very brief word to say on the matter too.

Best wishes

Anne

[cahoehler]

. . . . (British, not South African) Army Ordnance Corps played in German South West Africa. . .

Wesley

I rather think there was a greater presence than has been mentioned and as always South African Military History is badly documented and then of course a lot of records were lost or destroyed. The individual personnel records generally all exist but are often sparse. The British military records are generally better for the same man.

Lieutenant-Colonel George L Hay of the Army Ordnance Department was in command of the 2nd Brigade of the Heavy Artillery in the south of GSWA (Luderitzbücht and Tchaukaib) until March 1915. He was replaced by Lieutenant-Colonel Pryce Peacock who had arrived with the second detachment of RMA in February 1915. Hay’s Adjutant was Lieutenant P P McIndoe of whom I know nothing.

I have copies of 12 issues of the London Gazette with references to Hay (this is of course not an uncommon surname and there may be others) but there is however no mention of his service (in these issues)in South Africa during WW1.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/28849/pages/5451

ARMY ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT.

Captain George L. Hay retires on retired pay. Dated 15th July, 1914

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/32611/supplements/1372

ROYAL ARMY ORDNANCE CORPS.

Ord. Off., 3rd CL, Maj. & Bt. Lt.-Col. G. L. Hay, C.B.E., D.S.O., retires on ret. pay,.16th Feb 1922, and is granted the rank of Col.

There was also Captain C L Gransden (Inspector of Ordnance Machinery, South Africa and his team of armament artificers at the Army Ordnance Workshops, Fort Knokke, Woodstock) who had converted two BLC 15 pounders into anti-aircraft guns. The second of which was named "Skinny Liz" and served with the 1st Brigade of the Heavy Artillery under Captain E H Tamplin as H1 Battery. Harry has a nice image of "Skinny Liz" from the RA War Commemoration Book. The "prototype" was with the 2nd Brigade of the Heavy Artillery under Lieutenannt L W Wilkins (or Wilkens) as H2 Battery at Tchaukaib.

Woodstock is close to the Salt River Railway Workshops and it is likely there was close co-operation when those famous wide tread steel wheels were fitted to a large number of artillery carriages as well the lesser known railway guns shown in the image

Carl

[cahoehler]

. . . Josiah Wedgwood's motorised team to go to GSWA initially . . .

Anne

Wedgwood has a South African connection but it was Lieutenant-Commander W Whittall of the RN Armoured Car Division who was in command of this Squadron (no 1).

Botha cabled London¹ that if the Imperial Government wanted to withdraw their troops for use elsewhere, South Africa would be willing to defend itself. The South African Government agreed to the request² to undertake that Urgent Imperial Service on condition that the Imperial Government would undertake the naval part of the undertaking ³.

References

1. On August 4, 1914. See Minute 686 in Command Paper Cd. 7873.

2. Minute No. 9/18. Command Paper Cd 7873. The telegram went on:"You will, however, realise that any territory now occupied must be at the disposal of the Imperial Government for purposes of an ultimate settlement at the conclusion of the war." My emphasis

3. Minute No. 7/18. Command Paper Cd 7873. August 10 1914.

Of course what the Royal Navy was doing with armoured cars (and anti-aircraft artillery elsewhere) far from the sea is long and complicated story that does not reflect well on the War Office. Then there were those long-range BL 6-inch guns on extemporized carriages that Percy Scott was trying to force on the War Office.

Carl

[Heliographen-Abteilung]

Carl

Where can I locate Command Paper Cd 7873?

James

Anne

Wedgwood has a South African connection but it was Lieutenant-Commander W Whittall of the RN Armoured Car Division who was in command of this Squadron (no 1).

Botha cabled London¹ that if the Imperial Government wanted to withdraw their troops for use elsewhere, South Africa would be willing to defend itself. The South African Government agreed to the request² to undertake that "Urgent Imperial Service" on condition that the Imperial Government would undertake the naval part of the undertaking ³.

References

1. On August 4, 1914. See Minute 686 in Command Paper Cd. 7873.

2. Minute No. 9/18. Command Paper Cd 7873. The telegram went on:—"You will, however, realise that any territory now occupied must be at the disposal of the Imperial Government for purposes of an ultimate settlement at the conclusion of the war." My emphasis

3. Minute No. 7/18. Command Paper Cd 7873. August 10 1914.

Of course what the Royal Navy was doing with armoured cars (and anti-aircraft artillery elsewhere) far from the sea is long and complicated story that does not reflect well on the War Office. Then there were those long-range BL 6-inch guns on extemporized carriages that Percy Scott was trying to force on the War Office.

Carl

carl

[Heliographen-Abteilung]

Modified, armored Rolls-Royce Silver Ghosts with a Vickers MG in a revolving turret. They had limited involvement in the campaign but were instrumental in dissuading a German attack on an encampment at Trekkopjes. They were several smaller engagements in the pursuit of the German forces.

They learned a lot about maneuvering in desert terrain.

VR

What were the Royal Naval Armoured Cars using for this campaign?

[cahoehler]

Where can I locate Command Paper Cd 7873?

James

Unfortunately I have been unable to locate any of the Command papers in South Africa. These references came from Spender's General Botha.

http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm300dl probably has all the correspondence which would have been between Lewis Harcourt as Secretary for the Colonies and the Governor-General (Gladstone OR de Villiers (acting) OR Rose-Innes (acting) OR Buxton)

Series Cd covers the period 1900 to 1918 and there are over 9000 papers.

Command papers were originally issued by His Majesty's Stationery Office and there might be also copies avalable at TNA/PRO in Kew

Carl

[cahoehler]

On 10/03/2012 at 17:17, Heliographen-Abteilung said:

Modified, armored Rolls-Royce Silver Ghosts with a Vickers MG in a revolving turret. . .

james w has some nice images at

There is a German language publication Rolls Royce Rhinos zwischen Treibsand und Safariland by von Golf Dornseif. The image below comes from this publication.

Carl

[Heliographen-Abteilung]

That's a lot of territory to cover. I am looking for Imperial British motivations for taking the colonies beyond that of the stated prevent the use of the ports and knock out the radio stations. I have the belief eventual occupation was intended as it did indeed turn out.

VR

James

Unfortunately I have been unable to locate any of the Command papers in South Africa. These references came from Spender's General Botha.

http://www.national....cv/smws/sm300dl probably has all the correspondence which would have been between Lewis Harcourt as Secretary for the Colonies and the Governor-General (Gladstone OR de Villiers (acting) OR Rose-Innes (acting) OR Buxton)

Series Cd covers the period 1900 to 1918 and there are over 9000 papers.

Command papers were originally issued by His Majesty's Stationery Office and there might be also copies avalable at TNA/PRO in Kew

Carl

[cahoehler]

. . . eventual occupation was intended as it did indeed turn out.

James

Then there was the genocide 10 years before the Great War was started.

"You will, however, realise that any territory [in GSWA] now occupied must be at the disposal of the Imperial Government for purposes of an ultimate settlement at the conclusion of the war."

Similiar telegrams were addressed to Australia and New Zealand about the wireless stations in the German colonies in the east. Furthermore Austalia was restrained from any actions north of the equator where those colonies were "allocated" to Japan. After the Armistice, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa were permitted to sign the Treaty of Versailles as equals of the Imperial Government although it would be a decade before their status would be upgraded. The siuation of Newfoundland (later to be a province of Canada) is a bit more complex. Smuts who would succeed Botha was involved in amongst other important issues (like the AA defence of London, the formation of the RAF) with legal aspects of the Treaty of Versailles, the formation of League of Nations and of the United Nations. But the biggest culprit after the Armistice was Woodrow Wilson.

SWA was a Class C Mandate of the League of Nations (until 1946) but that is when the political problems started and which would only be resolved in 1990.

The issue of Walvis Bay long before 1914 (the boundaries were only agreed in 1913) was another shambles with the Cape and Imperial Governments being outwitted by the Bismarcks (Prince Otto and Count Herbert) with the German model being protection of the traders before actual colonisation and Prince Otto is said to have said that GSWA should be returned (but to whom?). Of course reconciling what Prince Otto really thought, actually did and said is a real problem.

You will also need to look at the activities of the missionaries long before colonization.

Carl

[cahoehler]

The cover of that famous Command Paper no Cd 9146 that was later withdrawn and destroyed.

Carl

[Heliographen-Abteilung]

Carl

Then CD 9146 became known as The Blue Book, a combination of truth and hyperbole that was used to justify giving the mandate to South Africa (who didn't do much better than the Germans).

It was reprinted with comments as Words Cannot Be Found: German Colonial Rule in Namibia : An Annotated Reprint of the 1918 Blue Book.

The question of what happened here in Namibia is still a very contentious subject.

VR

James

Windhoek

The cover of that famous Command Paper no Cd 9146 that was later withdrawn and destroyed.

Carl

[cahoehler]

. . . Then CD 9146 became known as The Blue Book, a combination of truth and hyperbole that was used to justify giving the mandate to South Africa (who didn't do much better than the Germans).

James

They were all blue. The original text can be read and printed from this URL: really you need only to print up to page 11 (the preface).

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00072665/00001

The history of the country is complex and nobody is blame free but some were really worse than others.

Carl

[Heliographen-Abteilung]

Trotha as number one.

James

They were all blue. The original text can be read and printed from this URL: really you need only to print up to page 11 (the preface).

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00072665/00001

The history of the country is complex and nobody is blame free but some were really worse than others.

Carl

[bushfighter]

Has anybody got anything more to say on the role of the British Army Ordnance Corps in GSWA?

Harry

[cahoehler]

There was also Captain C L Gransden (Inspector of Ordnance Machinery, South Africa and his team of armament artificers at the Army Ordnance Workshops, Fort Knokke, Woodstock) who had converted two BLC 15 pounders into anti-aircraft guns. The second of which was named "Skinny Liz" and served with the 1st Brigade of the Heavy Artillery under Captain E H Tamplin as H1 Battery. . . . The "prototype" was with the 2nd Brigade of the Heavy Artillery under Lieutenannt L W Wilkins (or Wilkens) as H2 Battery at Tchaukaib.

Woodstock is close to the Salt River Railway Workshops . . .

Harry

As always GSWA tends to run away from the original request.

An image of one of the converted BLC 15 pounders. Another image of a machine gun pretending to be Skinny Liz will follow.

Carl

[cahoehler]

. . . Another image of a machine gun pretending to be Skinny Liz . . .

[thesamsonsed@gmail.com]

Anne

Wedgwood has a South African connection but it was Lieutenant-Commander W Whittall of the RN Armoured Car Division who was in command of this Squadron (no 1).

Botha cabled London¹ that if the Imperial Government wanted to withdraw their troops for use elsewhere, South Africa would be willing to defend itself. The South African Government agreed to the request² to undertake that “Urgent Imperial Service” on condition that the Imperial Government would undertake the naval part of the undertaking ³.

References

1. On August 4, 1914. See Minute 686 in Command Paper Cd. 7873.

2. Minute No. 9/18. Command Paper Cd 7873. The telegram went on:—"You will, however, realise that any territory now occupied must be at the disposal of the Imperial Government for purposes of an ultimate settlement at the conclusion of the war." My emphasis

3. Minute No. 7/18. Command Paper Cd 7873. August 10 1914.

Of course what the Royal Navy was doing with armoured cars (and anti-aircraft artillery elsewhere) far from the sea is long and complicated story that does not reflect well on the War Office. Then there were those long-range BL 6-inch guns on extemporized carriages that Percy Scott was trying to force on the War Office.

Carl

Thanks Carl

for putting Wedgewood in context - it's something I've been trying to resolve amongst other more pressing bits.

I recall somewhere that Churchill had a say about the armoured cars being sent to Africa too, but I can't remember the reference.

Best wishes

Anne

[thesamsonsed@gmail.com]

Just to add briefly to the discussion, According to a 1919 memorial service leaflet found in Governor General Buxton's papers, there was no South African Ordnance Unit. There were however, South Africans linked to British Ordnance. I've put the list of SA units involved in WW1 according to this leaflet in a new thread.

Best wishes

Anne