hadfield Posted 23 October , 2011 Share Posted 23 October , 2011 Hi all, With reference to the picture below, can anyone ID this small single brass chevron? Overall width is 45mm, depth 21mm (approx) and the distance between the 'eyes' on the back is 35mm. Incidently, the chevron is curved. Regs B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 23 October , 2011 Share Posted 23 October , 2011 Hi B They are WW2 issue: for use with clothing where the sleeves were either short or worn rolled up, warrant Officers, and occasionally, NCOs wore wrist straps, either in cloth, usually KD cloth, or leather, on which were mounted their warrant Officers badge of rank in brass or worsted or NCO miniature brass chevrons. Gerwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 23 October , 2011 Share Posted 23 October , 2011 These miniature chevrons were first used on the pill box forage cap of both the Royal Artillery and the Royal Engineers. They were produced in one, two and three bar versions. Staff serjeants did not wear them. These RA / RE miniature chevrons pre-dated their use on wristlets by a good many decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 23 October , 2011 Share Posted 23 October , 2011 Hi Christopher From 1943, when warrant Officers and NCOs wore special cold climate clothing, their badges of rank were worn on the peak of the all weather cap, instead of the sleaves of the garments. Miniature cheverons were worn by NCOs and the normal size arm badges by warrant Officers. Gerwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 24 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 24 October , 2011 Hi all, As usual, nothing short of brilliant! Many thanks. Regs B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 24 October , 2011 Share Posted 24 October , 2011 Hi all, As usual, nothing short of brilliant! Many thanks. Regs B See the pill box cap of the man at right in this illustration. Notice the deep 'curved' shape of your stripe, the lines are not straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 24 October , 2011 Share Posted 24 October , 2011 Hi B. Here's a image, showing what it would have looked like, with the leather wrist strap. Gerwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 24 October , 2011 Share Posted 24 October , 2011 Hi B. Here's a image, showing what it would have looked like, with the leather wrist strap. Gerwyn The stripes for wristlets are straight whereas the OPs is more curved, which is why I do not believe it is from a wristlet. Note the curve of these head dress chevrons, albeit that they are for RMA rather than RA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 24 October , 2011 Share Posted 24 October , 2011 The stripes for wristlets are straight whereas the OPs is more curved, which is why I do not believe it is from a wristlet. Note the curve of these head dress chevrons, albeit that they are for RMA rather than RA. Hi FROGSMILE I thank you for showing me your images, and letting me know, what they would have looked like. Gerwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 25 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2011 Hi all, Based on what I've seen so far, it would appear that the chevron in question is WW1 (ish) or earlier rather than later? Regs B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 October , 2011 Share Posted 25 October , 2011 Hi all, Based on what I've seen so far, it would appear that the chevron in question is WW1 (ish) or earlier rather than later? Regs B I believe it to be an early variant yes. The curved shape was indicative of that era. Later on the stripes were cut in straight lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 25 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 25 October , 2011 Hi, Again many thanks for your help, I do feel I'm on a roll here so can I draw your attention to the picture below? It's a cloth badge that measures 55mm (approx) in diameter and the outer circle seems to be woven out of gold braid. The only thing it suggests to me is Red Cross and incidently, I found this badge with the chevron, possibly just circumstantial? Regs B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 25 October , 2011 Share Posted 25 October , 2011 Hi, Again many thanks for your help, I do feel I'm on a roll here so can I draw your attention to the picture below? It's a cloth badge that measures 55mm (approx) in diameter and the outer circle seems to be woven out of gold braid. The only thing it suggests to me is Red Cross and incidently, I found this badge with the chevron, possibly just circumstantial? Regs B I think you will find it is the Full Dress version of the arm badge authorised for soldiers of the RAMC only, although it was sometimes worn illegally as a badge of appointment by Hospital Sergeants of infantry regiments, of whom there was one per battalion who assisted the RMO. RAMC NCOs also wore the pill box forage cap (with chevrons) before 1902 so it is entirely possible that they belonged to the same man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 27 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 October , 2011 Hi Frogsmile, Thanks for that, fascinating! But would the gold braid make it an officers badge? Regs B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 October , 2011 Share Posted 27 October , 2011 Hi Frogsmile, Thanks for that, fascinating! But would the gold braid make it an officers badge? Regs B No, it is for the Full Dress uniform of other ranks of the RAMC (which was dark blue with crimson collar and cuffs). Officers did not (and still do not) wear what are considered 'Trade' badges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 October , 2011 Share Posted 27 October , 2011 and in full dress helmet. Notice the cuff bands in 'cherry' red, one for a 2nd class medical orderly and two for a 1st class medical orderly. These were introduced in 1881. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadfield Posted 29 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 29 October , 2011 Hi Frogsmile, All is clear, many thanks! Regs B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 29 October , 2011 Share Posted 29 October , 2011 No, it is for the Full Dress uniform of other ranks of the RAMC (which was dark blue with crimson collar and cuffs). Officers did not (and still do not) wear what are considered 'Trade' badges. If you had said "generally do not wear ...." I could agree. Somewhere c. 2006 there was a thread which listed exceptions to the rule. I am away from my sources and cannot find the link but I think the list of Trades worn at one time or another by officers included: crossed swords gymnastics instr [pre 1914 this usage] scout fleur-de-lys various ordnance and bomb disposal various para various commando German language interpreter There were, I think, others but I am brain dead at the moment. I accept that I have stretched the definition of "trade" rather, but trade" badge collectors do indeed classify them as such. I shall continue to hunt for the old thread of course. HERE IT IS: a huge list: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=54252&hl=parachute&st=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 October , 2011 Share Posted 29 October , 2011 If you had said "generally do not wear ...." I could agree. Somewhere c. 2006 there was a thread which listed exceptions to the rule. I am away from my sources and cannot find the link but I think the list of Trades worn at one time or another by officers included: crossed swords gymnastics instr [pre 1914 this usage] scout fleur-de-lys various ordnance and bomb disposal various para various commando German language interpreter There were, I think, others but I am brain dead at the moment. I accept that I have stretched the definition of "trade" rather, but trade" badge collectors do indeed classify them as such. I shall continue to hunt for the old thread of course. HERE IT IS: a huge list: http://1914-1918.inv...=parachute&st=0 I stand by my remark. Those you have listed are skills, or 'proficiency badges' that are indeed worn by officers and I have never disputed that. By trade badges I am referring to two types of badge, first the badges of appointment/arm of service like RAMC Geneva Cross, RA Gun, RE Grenade, School of Musketry's standard crossed rifles (not the Qualification badge with crown adjoined though), School of Gymnasium crossed sabres, and second trade badges, such as Hammer and Tongs, Farriers Horseshoe, Wheeler's/Carpenter's Wheel, Driver's Whip and Bridle, etc. etc. I did not feel the need to qualify the foregoing in great detail as I thought to most military aficionados the differences would be clear, but no matter, thank you for clarifying things for those unsure. The difference is well known to those serving and does not seem at all subtle in interpretation, but crystal clear. They still stand and - officers did not and do not wear 'trade' badges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 30 October , 2011 Share Posted 30 October , 2011 HI Tradesmen's badges, these badges were made from brass, fastened with a support plate and split pin/pins, after 1940, due to war time economy, they were made from worsted. They were worn on the right sleeve of the service dress jacket, after 1939-40, the battle dress blouse, NCOs wore them 3/4 above the point of the inner angle of the top cheveron for other ranks, the lower edge of the badge was 9 inch from the top of the sleeve at the point of the shoulder, Warrant Ofiicers wore the badge below the rank badge. Gerwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 30 October , 2011 Share Posted 30 October , 2011 I stand by my remark. Those you have listed are skills, or 'proficiency badges' that are indeed worn by officers and I have never disputed that. By trade badges I am referring to two types of badge, first the badges of appointment/arm of service like RAMC Geneva Cross, RA Gun, RE Grenade, School of Musketry's standard crossed rifles (not the Qualification badge with crown adjoined though), School of Gymnasium crossed sabres, and second trade badges, such as Hammer and Tongs, Farriers Horseshoe, Wheeler's/Carpenter's Wheel, Driver's Whip and Bridle, etc. etc. I did not feel the need to qualify the foregoing in great detail as I thought to most military aficionados the differences would be clear, but no matter, thank you for clarifying things for those unsure. The difference is well known to those serving and does not seem at all subtle in interpretation, but crystal clear. They still stand and - officers did not and do not wear 'trade' badges. Not happy with examples:gun, grenade, part of SNCO rank badge to distinguish from lance appointments. Whip was prize badge in pre- and during Great War .... worn as skill-at-arms lower left. Grenade as appointment worn TMB and bomber, in both cases also by officer, same position. Also Scout officer. Happy with principal however, officers did not stoop to vulgar trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 October , 2011 Share Posted 31 October , 2011 Not happy with examples:gun, grenade, part of SNCO rank badge to distinguish from lance appointments. Whip was prize badge in pre- and during Great War .... worn as skill-at-arms lower left. Grenade as appointment worn TMB and bomber, in both cases also by officer, same position. Also Scout officer. Happy with principal however, officers did not stoop to vulgar trade. And the "principal" was all I was ever referring to, as I am sure that you well know, you are just being mischievous. We can split hairs all day and all night about which badge meant what, but again the badges you quote were either badges of proficiency or badges of appointment, neither of which are badges of "trade" in the context I was making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 31 October , 2011 Share Posted 31 October , 2011 OK you are totally right and I am totally wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 31 October , 2011 Share Posted 31 October , 2011 OK you are totally right and I am totally wrong. "Happy with principal however, officers did not stoop to vulgar trade." "I accept that I have stretched the definition of "trade" rather". It was not me who took matters beyond what I so clearly meant in the context of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pioneecorps Posted 31 October , 2011 Share Posted 31 October , 2011 Warrant Ofiicers wore the Tradesmens badge below their rank badge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now