DCLI Posted 20 July , 2004 Share Posted 20 July , 2004 Not being very knowledgeable about small arms - what is this rifle? It doesn't look like a LE. Pic taken at Catterick in either 1914 or 1915. regards Anthony Farrar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 20 July , 2004 Share Posted 20 July , 2004 No expert here but I think this is the Lee-Enfield Magazine Rifle Mark I, or as it was also known, the "Magazine Lee-Enfield" (MLE) which was introduced in about 1895. This was the rifle often given to recruits in training, while the factories struggled to increase production to meet the increased need for the SMLE. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogal Posted 20 July , 2004 Share Posted 20 July , 2004 Hi, I'm not an expert but... Possibly a Lee Metford rifle, the preceeding weapon of choice for the British Army. Used during the Sudan Campaign of the late 1890's for example. - bolt action by Lee, hence the resemblance to the later Lee Enfield. BUT - I could be wrong - my knowledge here is rusty, so I would happily be corrected - there was a P14 suggested as a replacement for the Lee Enfield at one point, but the war prevented its widespread use - I've never seen an image of it, so there is the possibility it could be the P14. However - I'd go with Lee Metford. rgds doogal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Graham McInnes Posted 20 July , 2004 Share Posted 20 July , 2004 I could not tell the difference between a Lee Metford and a Lee Enfield without looking down the barrel but the photo is one or the other. If you want to see an image of a P14 there's a whole platoon of them on TV in Dads Army. Made in USA for the British Army in .303 calibre none had arrived until late 1915. When USA joined the war the calibre was changed to .30 and production continued for training soldiers. These ended up in the UK in 1940 and were issued to the Home Guard as well as the .303 version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 20 July , 2004 Share Posted 20 July , 2004 I certainly wouldn't argue with Doogal about which rifle it is (MLE versus Lee-Metford.) I went for the MLE because of the very prominent sling-swivel, but I've just seen a pic of a Lee Metford and that has one too! Graham has the right approach - it must be one or the other! Definitely not a Pattern 14 though - see below. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogal Posted 20 July , 2004 Share Posted 20 July , 2004 Hi, It took me so long to write the post (work impinging on my carefully measured leisure time once more), that when I pressed "post", Tom had already provided an educated answer... Dad's Army - I'd always wondered what the rifles were (sad but true) Anyhow, by luck rather than judgement, I am happy to have added an additonal option. rgds doogal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priv Posted 20 July , 2004 Share Posted 20 July , 2004 Although the picture is not clear, there are three pertinent bits to note: 1) Pronounced Magazine - therefore not a Carbine 2) Shortened Bayonet Lug 3) No pronounced ring where the foresight attaches to the barrel or indeed a forseight protector. Having gone through Skennerton's Lee Enfield Story and compared all the possibilities, I would plump for this being (assuming the one on the left is the same as the one on the right !!) a Charger Loading Lee Enfield MkI - a conversion to take the Mark VII .303 round or either a Magazine Lee Enfield Mk I*. It is impossible to be sure without seeing the action - if it has the dust cover per the MLE or the Charger per the CLE. I do not believe that it is a Lee Metford as the bayonet lugs are not so pronounced. I do not profess to be an expert, but just someone who has an interest in Lee Enfields - enough to go and pay £ 50 for Skennerton's Book, which I would throoughly recommend to anyone at all interested. I also enjoy shooting SMLE's and No 4's. If anyone knows of a live Jungle Carbine up for sale,please let me know !!!!!! James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogal Posted 28 July , 2004 Share Posted 28 July , 2004 Hi, After posting on this thread a few days ago, I wondered if anyone knew if any of the rifles discussed above - the Magazine Lee Enfield or the Lee Metford for that matter - were used in the front line at all? doogal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted 28 July , 2004 Share Posted 28 July , 2004 I have a vague memory that the Royal Navy used the Lee Enfield Mk1 for boarding parties etc, also that Indian troops on the way to Tanga in East Africa were only issued the SMLE on the ships problem is that I can't remember whether they had Mk1s, Lee Metfords, or Martini Henrys!These rifles were morelikely to be found in colonial hands . Regards Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Graham McInnes Posted 28 July , 2004 Share Posted 28 July , 2004 Dougal the Lee Metford was used by Territorials in 1914. The London Scottish used them at Messines. They quickly exchanged them for SMLE's found lying about the battlefield because they did not load very well or not at all if you were at the wrong end of a bayonet charge. The Royal Navy handed all their SMLE's over to the Army after arming the RN division(post Antwerp). They used MLE's or Lee Metfords at Antwerp looking at the photos. The Navy then bought a large number of Japanese rifles to arm boarding parties. Both rifles were used for training Kitcheners Army though only for drill. I suspect the MLE was used in Mesopotamia and Palestine in 1918 as the expansion of the Indian Army took hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AmericanDoughboy Posted 28 July , 2004 Share Posted 28 July , 2004 It could be an artificial training rifle... -Doughboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doogal Posted 30 July , 2004 Share Posted 30 July , 2004 The Navy then bought a large number of Japanese rifles to arm boarding parties. Hi Graham, amazing!! If you consider the scale of our small arms industry in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, this is an incredible state of affairs. I don't suppose you know what the Japanese rifles were? rgds doogal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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