Devonshire regiment in ireland

[mgbarrett1]

Hi all,

looking for any information on a Capt Beauville who was in Castlecomer with the Devonshire regiment and involved in the Coolbawn ambush in June 1921 and any info on the Black and tan and auxiliaries that were stationed in the locality.

I have a lot of info on the IRA position on the day, names and where they were in the ambush site, location, but little info on the Crown forces involved except that they were commanded by a Capt Beauville of the Devonshire regiment and also included elements of the Black and tans and the Auxiliaries.

Any help would be much appreciated.

regards Martin

[corisande]

Martin

You presumably have read the local newspaper reports, and they only say a "mixed Crown force" but do not detail the makeup.

As there were no Crown casualties, they did not have to disclose any more than that. My feeling is that you will only get more detail from WO files in TNA

[corisande]

they were commanded by a Capt Beauville of the Devonshire regiment

That seems to be the nub of the problem. I have tried various wild card possibilities and cannot get a MIC for anyone remotely like "Beauville" in Devons or anywhere else

Where did you get the snippet with his name?

[mgbarrett1]

That seems to be the nub of the problem. I have tried various wild card possibilities and cannot get a MIC for anyone remotely like "Beauville" in Devons or anywhere else

Where did you get the snippet with his name?

Hi cor, i got the name from a local publication a very detailed account of the local IRA action basicly the crown forces ambushed the "ambushers" after scouts released a local man who informed his employer what was going to happen. The account gives a very detailed account of the whole action two IRA members were killed and one wounded Nicholas Mullins and Sean Hartley both killed by machine gun fire from two lewis gun positions. I was just wondering if anyone could shed some light on the crown forces involved.

The account just says that Capt beauville or as thay use to call him localy was Capt "BOVRIL" was in charge, the RIC under Sgt keily and elements of the black and tans and the auxiliaries.

regards Martin

[mgbarrett1]

The Coolbawn action was one of the only times a landmine was used in an ambush as the local miners were experienced in explosive material.

The mine consisted of a "skillet pot" gelignite and detonators with a spring trigger

regards Martin

[corisande]

The Coolbawn action was one of the only times a landmine was used in an ambush

Afraid the local IRA are exceeding themselves there, there were quite a lot of mines uses in various ambushes, they did not always work as at Crossbarry, but many did

What is the local source for this ambush. One of the problems always is in how they either transcribed or remembered the name of the British - strange accents worked both ways. I tried using say "beau*" and "devon" but could not find your man

[mgbarrett1]

This one did not work either they removed it a couple of days later

it is from Tom lyngs book "Castlecomer connections" in 1984 i think that was the year it is the only reference to a name i have in connection the the crown forces involved as of today

martin

[corisande]

I would guess there is the possibility that the mixed Crown Forces had ADRIC, in which case it would have been A Coy presumably at Innistioge - I had a look among their members but cannot see an ex- Devonshire officer that would fit (Partridge and War being the only ones)

I have the inquest from the death of Pte Smith of the Devons in Carrick on Suir Ambush in Jun 1921, but that does not mention any officers

The only other Devon death appears to be Pte Parsons in Dec 1920, when he fell into the Suir at Clonmel

Do you know of any others?

[mgbarrett1]

he wrote this account with information gathered from local sources including the account of James comerford who was involved in the ambush who went on to become a judge in New York. In 1978 Comerford privately published an account of his days in Co Kilkenny with the IRA. In over 1,100 pages, he gave a detailed, even exhausting, account of his activities in the parish of Muckalee from 1916 to 1922.

martin

[corisande]

It is coming back to me now. I have never got into buying Kilkenny books of the period as there was not a lot to get from them. But that one might

"My Kilkenny IRA Days" by James Comerford

I see I can buy a copy today on Amazon for £230 !

As you live in Kilkenny it would be worth your while reading it in you county library local history centre (presumably in Kilkenny)

[mgbarrett1]

It is coming back to me now. I have never got into buying Kilkenny books of the period as there was not a lot to get from them. But that one might

"My Kilkenny IRA Days" by James Comerford

I see I can buy a copy today on Amazon for £230 !

As you live in Kilkenny it would be worth your while reading it in you county library local history centre (presumably in Kilkenny)

I will check tomorrow

cheers martin

[corisande]

I have found it on Abe Books now at £165, but that does not tempt me either - tempt my wife even less if I bought it

Seriously, the problem is always to get a balanced mix of what is going on. The IRA always over-estimated the casualties they inflicted on the British, the British always over-estimated the number of IRA men ambushing them, both sides always claimed the other side used dum-dum bullets, mutilated the dead, torture and shot prisoners, etc.

You are looking at a low grade ambush where the British had no casualties, so some digging is required to get the British viewpoint, the IRA viewpoint is always easier to get on this sort of action

It is also worth your while investigation Witness Statements at Bur Military History in Dublin if any of the IRA men involved made a statement

[mgbarrett1]

I would guess there is the possibility that the mixed Crown Forces had ADRIC, in which case it would have been A Coy presumably at Innistioge - I had a look among their members but cannot see an ex- Devonshire officer that would fit (Partridge and War being the only ones)

I have the inquest from the death of Pte Smith of the Devons in Carrick on Suir Ambush in Jun 1921, but that does not mention any officers

The only other Devon death appears to be Pte Parsons in Dec 1920, when he fell into the Suir at Clonmel

Do you know of any others?

the only deaths that i know of in the local area are Cpl F Lord, L/Cpl A Walsh , Pte W G Heppenstall who lost their lives through an explosion in Castlecomer 25 September 1919 of the 2nd / 1st (A P W O) Yorkshire Hussars."

regards martin

[mgbarrett1]

Cor

Thanks for trying

regards Martin

[mgbarrett1]

I have found it on Abe Books now at £165, but that does not tempt me either - tempt my wife even less if I bought it

Seriously, the problem is always to get a balanced mix of what is going on. The IRA always over-estimated the casualties they inflicted on the British, the British always over-estimated the number of IRA men ambushing them, both sides always claimed the other side used dum-dum bullets, mutilated the dead, torture and shot prisoners, etc.

You are looking at a low grade ambush where the British had no casualties, so some digging is required to get the British viewpoint, the IRA viewpoint is always easier to get on this sort of action

It is also worth your while investigation Witness Statements at Bur Military History in Dublin if any of the IRA men involved made a statement

I have all the info on the IRA side the ambush itself it was a big operation commanded by George Dwyer North Kilkenny Brigade who eventually took over command of kilkenny military barracks with the cease fire. The interesting thing is that when Miss Florrie Dreaper found out what was going on she felt it her civic duty to inform the authorities. Two days after the ambush they burnt her house and she went back to England.This caused a lot of tension in the area for many a year after

regards martin

[mgbarrett1]

Cor,

i am looking here at the letter of the hand over of woodstock to the local IRA Signed by what looks like A Hulse Major Officer commanding "A" coy Aux can't find him either a bad night does the name make any sense to you

PS dez if you see this i will send it on as soon as i get my scanner fixed.

[corisande]

Yes I had picked up the Miss Dreaper tipping the British off, ans then the British ambushing the ambushers as it were.

I found the Castlecomer Mine Explosion in press - click this link for articles - I never heard about it before, and it looks particularly nasty.

[corisande]

i am looking here at the letter of the hand over of woodstock to the local IRA Signed by what looks like A Hulse Major Officer commanding "A" coy Aux can't find him either a bad night does the name make any sense to you

Send Dez a PM, he will get it that way.

I don't get a Hulse joining RIC, nor can I see him in ADRIC in A Coy. If you could post the signature when your scanner is working it would help

[mgbarrett1]

Send Dez a PM, he will get it that way.

I don't get a Hulse joining RIC, nor can I see him in ADRIC in A Coy. If you could post the signature when your scanner is working it would help

I will hopefully have it fixed tomorrow i will post it then.

[mgbarrett1]

Yes I had picked up the Miss Dreaper tipping the British off, ans then the British ambushing the ambushers as it were.

I found the Castlecomer Mine Explosion in press - click this link for articles - I never heard about it before, and it looks particularly nasty.

if you search heppenstall on the forum you will get more info there is a long thread on this subject

regards martin

[corisande]

Thanks for that, save me re-inventing the wheel

[Carmania]

This comes from the RIC County Inspectors' Monthly Confidential Report for July 1921:

'On 7.7.21 the dwelling house of Miss Rebecca Draper, Moonenroe, Castlecomer was raided and burned by 30 armed men. Miss Draper, the IRA allege gave warning of the Coolbawn ambush to the police.'

[mgbarrett1]

This comes from the RIC County Inspectors' Monthly Confidential Report for July 1921:

'On 7.7.21 the dwelling house of Miss Rebecca Draper, Moonenroe, Castlecomer was raided and burned by 30 armed men. Miss Draper, the IRA allege gave warning of the Coolbawn ambush to the police.'

Thanks for the reply Carmania

The house was "Finsboro House". Sean Bradley was detained by the members of one of the outposts at the ambush site but pleaded with them, he said that if he did not turn up for work at the house he would lose his job with Miss Florrie Draper (note the different first name could be the sister)He was allowed to go and duly explained to his demanding boss the reason for him being late.Miss Florrie had more reasons than one for being angry and hurried along the river Deen to perform what seem to her to be an urgent civic duty.

Taken from Tom lyngh Castlecomer Connections"

Regards martin

[mgbarrett1]

I would guess there is the possibility that the mixed Crown Forces had ADRIC, in which case it would have been A Coy presumably at Innistioge - I had a look among their members but cannot see an ex- Devonshire officer that would fit (Partridge and War being the only ones)

I have the inquest from the death of Pte Smith of the Devons in Carrick on Suir Ambush in Jun 1921, but that does not mention any officers

The only other Devon death appears to be Pte Parsons in Dec 1920, when he fell into the Suir at Clonmel

Do you know of any others?

Reference Pte Smith i don't know if you have this but on the 18th June

An RIC patrol is ambushed at Fiddown (near Thomastown), Co. Killkenny resulting in the death of one RIC (Constable Albert Bradford) and the wounding of another (Sgt Sweatman) the following day A British Army group escorting the body of Constable Bradford was ambushed at Newbridge, Carrick-on-Suir, Co. Tipperary resulting in the death of one soldier (Pte Smith of the First Devons).From this i would say that Pte smith although killed in Tipperary was more than likely stationed in Kilkenny and was escorting the body to carrick on suir for what ever reason. which again gives us another member of the Devon's in the Kilkenny area.

[corisande]

3 Privates in 1st Devons who were in Smith's patrol, gave evidence at the Military Inquiry into his death. They were

Pte J W Stanton

Pte Sheppard (either HH or WH)

Pte A Stacey