Uniform ID Please

[trevor.weekes]

Hello all

Have just discovered this photograph amongst some family papers and as usual there is nothing written on the back to identify the relative. I have a hunch who it is but a uniform id will solve the problem.

Thanks

Rovert

[FROGSMILE]

Hello all

Have just discovered this photograph amongst some family papers and as usual there is nothing written on the back to identify the relative. I have a hunch who it is but a uniform id will solve the problem.

Thanks

Rovert

I believe he is a soldier of the Royal West Kent (RWK) regiment around 1902. In that year the previous infantry tunic with so-called 'jam pot' cuffs was replaced by the pointed cuff seen in your picture. He has a dark blue collar and cuffs (for a 'Royal' regiment) with a tracing surround of white lace. His collar badges are the Lion and Crown of the RWK and you can just see the outline of a cap badge on his Field Service Cap (FSC), which would be the rearing white horse of kent over a scroll INVICTA and title 'Royal West Kent'. That same year the FSC would be replaced by an odd looking, 'New Pattern' forage cap that became known as the 'Brodrick' cap, after the secretary of state for war who introduced it. The fact that this young soldier has the new tunic but not the new cap indicates that the regiment is in transition but has not yet received (or issued) the new cap. The whitened buff leather belt that he is wearing is from the Slade Wallace pattern of 1888 Valise equipment and bears the 1870 pattern Union Locket buckle that is inscribed DIEU ET MON DROIT. Unusually, the type of swagger stick he is carrying, as is normal for "walking out dress", is made of whangee cane and has probably been brought back from an earlier, tropical station.

I have checked to confirm that the regiment were in the garrison at that time and sure enough the 1st battalion are at Shorncliffe, together with the 2nd battalion the Royal Sussex regiment, but the latter's collar badge was significantly different. A brother regiment, 2nd battalion the Buffs (East Kent) regiment, were actually in Dover itself, and they had the white collar and cuffs of a (then) non-Royal regiment.

Shorncliffe was a larger station than Dover, with more barracks, but the whole of the units there came under the HQ at Dover (of 'South Eastern District') and, at that time, it is at Dover that the main centre of commerce, including photographers, was located.

[FROGSMILE]

Here is a better view of the FSC and his cap badge, although at that time it was plain blue and without the red piping (added for a later version) that you see here. The cap badge is that of an affiliated battalion of the London Regiment but the form of it is the same.

[trevor.weekes]

Thank you. That is not what I had expected. The date 1902 places the photograph at the end of the Boer War, not WW1 as I had expected. Found with the original photograph was also this one which I thought may be Boer war so did not include it. It does not appear to be the same person. Your comments would be appreciated

Rovert

Here is a better view of the FSC and his cap badge, although at that time it was plain blue and without the red piping (added for a later version) that you see here.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you. That is not what I had expected. The date 1902 places the photograph at the end of the Boer War, not WW1 as I had expected. Found with the original photograph was also this one which I thought may be Boer war so did not include it. It does not appear to be the same person. Your comments would be appreciated

Rovert

This photo is from around 1868-70 and shows an infantry soldier wearing a glengarry cap that was adopted by all line infantry (it had since 20-years previously been worn by Scots regiments). Positioned distinctively on show is his 3-band Snider Enfield rifle that had only come into service in 1866 and so was still relatively new. I am unable to identify his regiment as there is little evidence on view. However, he does appear to have a black belt and I can just see a pointed cuff, if there are lace loops (so-called 'Austrian') extending above this (I cannot see) then it is possible that he is a part time soldier of the Rifle Volunteers, who would often make a show of their rifles.

[trevor.weekes]

Thank You.

I will have to look further back into the family to try to identify these two but WW1 is certainly not where to look.

Once again Thank You.

Rovert

This photo is from around 1868-70 and shows an infantry soldier wearing a glengarry cap that was adopted by all line infantry (it had since 20-years previously been worn by Scots regiments). Positioned distinctively on show is his 3-band Snider Enfield rifle that had only come into service in 1866 and so was still relatively new. I am unable to identify his regiment as there is little evidence on view.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank You.

I will have to look further back into the family to try to identify these two but WW1 is certainly not where to look.

Once again Thank You.

Rovert

If he is a Rifle Volunteer, as seems possible, there were no drill halls at Wantage at that time, but there were at: Oxford University, Oxford City, Banbury, Henley, Woodstock and Witney, Deddington, Bicester, Thame, Woodstock. I do not know which of those is close to Wantage.

[trevor.weekes]

Thank You. I had family living in Oxford, Henley and Wantage so I now have two new puzzles to try to solve! It is hard enough trying to sort out WW1 but 1868 - 1870 places it at the time the British annexed Basutoland as a crown colony at the request of King Mosweshwe however as a part time soldier he probably joined up but never expected to ever be engaged in any action. 31 May 1902 the Boer War had ended Surrender terms being signed at Pretoria so again this young man was too late to be involved in any fighting.

Rovert

If he is a Rifle Volunteer, as seems possible, there were no drill halls at Wantage at that time, but there were at: Oxford University, Oxford City, Banbury, Henley, Woodstock and Witney, Deddington, Bicester, Thame, Woodstock. I do not know which of those is close to Wantage.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank You. I had family living in Oxford, Henley and Wantage so I now have two new puzzles to try to solve! It is hard enough trying to sort out WW1 but 1868 - 1870 places it at the time the British annexed Basutoland as a crown colony at the request of King Mosweshwe however as a part time soldier he probably joined up but never expected to ever be engaged in any action. 31 May 1902 the Boer War had ended Surrender terms being signed at Pretoria so again this young man was too late to be involved in any fighting.

Rovert

All of the locations that I quoted were eventually combined into 2 regiments of Oxfordshire Rifle Volunteers. Both regiments wore scarlet jackets and the regiment formed from the locations in and around Oxford had blue collars and cuffs, whereas the regiment formed from the other locations had white collar and cuffs. It seems likely therefore, that the man in our photo, although pre-dating these battalions by at least a decade, is from one of the locations close to, or in Oxford.

At that time the Volunteers were not expected, or obligated to fight overseas and were intended purely for home defence. Few men were under any illusion that they would be required to fight and the companies formed were largely a form of social and shooting club. This led to a certain ribbing from the media about amateurs dressing up as soldiers and, in the 2nd Boer War, many of the volunteer units did volunteer to fight overseas and in a number of cases did so.

Incidentally, for the first man it seems that the photographer, Frederick Deakin, was at 121 Snargate Street from 1892-1909 according to Dover Museum records. There is evidence that he was popular with the military for studio posed Cartes De Visite.

[trevor.weekes]

Hello FROGSMILE.

Thank you for all your help. Unfortunately as yet I cannot link the dates you have given to members of the family. The most likely was in Wantage 1854 - 1858 and died near Henley 1867. As for the younger man photographed in Dover. The family moved into West Kent in 1883 (Strood) so there are a few posibilities here but none that jump off the page at you.

Do you know if there are any muster lists that have survived.

Once again. Thank you for all your help

Rovert

All of the locations that I quoted were eventually combined into 2 regiments of Oxfordshire Rifle Volunteers. Both regiments wore scarlet jackets and the regiment formed from the locations in and around Oxford had blue collars and cuffs, whereas the regiment formed from the other locations had white collar and cuffs. It seems likely therefore, that the man in our photo, although pre-dating these battalions by at least a decade, is from one of the locations close to, or in Oxford.

At that time the Volunteers were not expected, or obligated to fight overseas and were intended purely for home defence. Few men were under any illusion that they would be required to fight and the company's formed were largely a form of social and shooting club. This led to a certain ribbing from the media about amateurs dressing up as soldiers and, in the 2nd Boer War, many of the volunteer units did volunteer to fight overseas and in a number of cases did so.

Incidentally for the first man it seems that the photographer, Frederick Deakin, was at 121 Snargate Street from 1892-1909 according to Dover Museum records. There is evidence that he was popular with the military for studio posed Cartes De Visite.

[Schrorj]

Here's a variation on the theme....I'm curious about the helmet. The cap badge says West Kent. The belt buckle says "Dieu et Mon Droit". This is a picture of my grandfather's brother. He was stationed to South Africa in 1909 and I'm wondering if the white helmet had something to do with that assignment or is it part of a dress uniform for some other purpose?

[Muerrisch]

The original query photo is dateable 1902 to 1912. During this period the white braid/piping/tracing on the collar was at the top. Before and after it was at the bottom, except for Foot Guards. After 1914 the scarlet tunic was not issued except for special units/events/ bands/ pageants etc. Always excepting the Guards, of course.

[FROGSMILE]

Here's a variation on the theme....I'm curious about the helmet. The cap badge says West Kent. The belt buckle says "Dieu et Mon Droit". This is a picture of my grandfather's brother. He was stationed to South Africa in 1909 and I'm wondering if the white helmet had something to do with that assignment or is it part of a dress uniform for some other purpose?

The white 'foreign service' helmet replaced the blue 'home service' pattern when battalions were serving overseas and an additional khaki helmet was issued for use in the field. The buckle with inscription is called a 'Union Locket' and replaced the previous regimental patterns (to save money - nothing changes) in 1870. Dieu et mon droit is the motto of the British Monarch in England and has most commonly been translated as "God and my right." One thing that puzzles me about the photo is that although he is wearing the 'foreign service' helmet he is wearing the 'home service' 7-button tunic (a 5-button frock was usually worn abroad), which makes me wonder if he had the photo taken in Britain before departing for foreign shores (this seems unlikely as the helmet would normally be issued overseas).

[Steven Broomfield]

I presume the one on the right was in the Queen's Own Royal Shorta*ses.

[Muerrisch]

The white 'foreign service' helmet replaced the blue 'home service' pattern when battalions were serving overseas and an additional khaki helmet was issued for use in the field. The buckle with inscription is called a 'Union Locket' and replaced the previous regimental patterns (to save money - nothing changes) in 1870. Dieu et mon droit is the motto of the British Monarch in England and has most commonly been translated as "God and my right." One thing that puzzles me about the photo is that although he is wearing the 'foreign service' helmet he is wearing the 'home service' 7-button tunic (a 5-button frock was usually worn abroad), which makes me wonder if he had the photo taken in Britain before departing for foreign shores (this seems unlikely as the helmet would normally be issued overseas).

I know too little about headdress [cannot find a decent history of them] but the whole photo strikes me as odd. I agree Home tunic. If, as I think, that is pre 1902 or post 1912 [collar], the headdress is not what I would expect, with the big standard star badge and neither the colonial nor the wolseley. I think he has jampot cuffs pre 1902, but, again, no braiding. Are we looking at infantry, or what? I see he has the spike not the ball ......

Certainly the issue helmet in India was khaki, with a separate white cover, but his looks like a solid white version of the blue cloth helmet?

Someone enlighten me please!

[Schrorj]

I know too little about headdress [cannot find a decent history of them] but the whole photo strikes me as odd. I agree Home tunic. If, as I think, that is pre 1902 or post 1912 [collar], the headdress is not what I would expect, with the big standard star badge and neither the colonial nor the wolseley. I think he has jampot cuffs pre 1902, but, again, no braiding. Are we looking at infantry, or what? I see he has the spike not the ball ......

Certainly the issue helmet in India was khaki, with a separate white cover, but his looks like a solid white version of the blue cloth helmet?

Someone enlighten me please!

I've found another reference about him that might be helpful... He enlisted into The Buffs East Kent Regiment. He served in South Africa from 1905 to 1909 and then it looks like Egypt from 1911-12. There are two indications of transfer: one in 1906 but I can't make it out and then in 1910 to the Military Police. In 1913 under "Corps." it has "Military Mounted Police". Is he holding a riding crop in the picture?

[FROGSMILE]

I know too little about headdress [cannot find a decent history of them] but the whole photo strikes me as odd. I agree Home tunic. If, as I think, that is pre 1902 or post 1912 [collar], the headdress is not what I would expect, with the big standard star badge and neither the colonial nor the wolseley. I think he has jampot cuffs pre 1902, but, again, no braiding. Are we looking at infantry, or what? I see he has the spike not the ball ......

Certainly the issue helmet in India was khaki, with a separate white cover, but his looks like a solid white version of the blue cloth helmet?

Someone enlighten me please!

Yes, it is a jam pot cuff tunic and so pre 1902 - you can see the distinctly curved front to the collar join. At the time the Home Service helmet was first issued an equivalent in white (not with a cover initially) existed for Foreign Service and was worn with the standard helmet star. This situation continued until the 1890s when a khaki version was issued. Stuart Bates will be able to give more precise details, but my understanding is that for a period the white helmet was used on parade (each helmet came with a spike and an airator button that were interchangeable) and a khaki version in the field, initially achieved by staining. This was, much later, (around the time of the 2nd Anglo/Boer War) achieved by the use of a cloth cover. I would date the photo as some time in the late 1890s.

[FROGSMILE]

I've found another reference about him that might be helpful... He enlisted into The Buffs East Kent Regiment. He served in South Africa from 1905 to 1909 and then it looks like Egypt from 1911-12. There are two indications of transfer: one in 1906 but I can't make it out and then in 1910 to the Military Police. In 1913 under "Corps." it has "Military Mounted Police". Is he holding a riding crop in the picture?

He is still in the Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) Regiment in the photo and carrying a swagger stick, as was standard regimental dress for 'walking out'. The Buffs were the other regiment of Kent and did not become Royal until later and thus wore white collar and cuffs at the time of the 2nd Boer War. He probably transferred between the two Kent regiments in 1906.

I enclose a picture of a Highlander in the same helmet.

[Muerrisch]

Thank you Frogsmile ..... a gap in the nolledge bank filled!

With all that in mind I can certainly go with your dating.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you Frogsmile ..... a gap in the nolledge bank filled!

With all that in mind I can certainly go with your dating.

Here are some gunners in the equivalent order of dress (i.e. foreign station), before the spike was changed to a ball. Cavalry in India even wore the white helmet, with spike, in the field !!

[Schrorj]

Thanks for the information! Fantastic! In the same box of photos from Kent I found this picture. I cannot recognize the individuals but I'm wondering about the uniform as a place to start. Sadly I cannot fully make out the badges. Any help would be appreciated.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for the information! Fantastic! In the same box of photos from Kent I found this picture. I cannot recognize the individuals but I'm wondering about the uniform as a place to start. Sadly I cannot fully make out the badges. Any help would be appreciated.

He is an Australian soldier, probably from an Australian Light Horse unit (he appears to have breeches and leather gaiters), many of which formed early in the Great War having gained a reputation earlier in the 2nd Anglo/Boer War. They were seen as epitomising an emerging Australian National spirit and thus very popular. His collar badge is the standard Australian commonwealth pattern. The picture is a little unusual in that he has not hooked up one side of his slouch hat, as later became a National characteristic.

[Schrorj]

He is an Australian soldier, probably from an Australian Light Horse unit (he appears to have breeches and leather gaiters), many of which formed early in the Great War having gained a reputation earlier in the 2nd Anglo/Boer War. They were seen as epitomising an emerging Australian National spirit and thus very popular. His collar badge is the standard Australian commonwealth pattern. The picture is a little unusual in that he has not hooked up one side of his slouch hat, as later became a National characteristic.

Well this is really interesting! Thanks so much for the information. The person in the Australian uniform we now assume is the person in the West Kent photo I posted earlier. After serving in Egypt he was sick and frail and had to leave the military. He ended up in Australia in NSW at some point. What we don't know is the period between 1913 and 1942 yet. Get this... In 1942 while in his 50's he enlisted in the "E.C. Stationary Unit as a Clerk," Acting Rank Warrent Officer2." He was listed as "B2" due to his age and did not serve overseas. He stayed with the military until 1950 and died at the age of 96 in New South Wales.

[FROGSMILE]

Well this is really interesting! Thanks so much for the information. The person in the Australian uniform we now assume is the person in the West Kent photo I posted earlier. After serving in Egypt he was sick and frail and had to leave the military. He ended up in Australia in NSW at some point. What we don't know is the period between 1913 and 1942 yet. Get this... In 1942 while in his 50's he enlisted in the "E.C. Stationary Unit as a Clerk," Acting Rank Warrent Officer2." He was listed as "B2" due to his age and did not serve overseas. He stayed with the military until 1950 and died at the age of 96 in New South Wales.

That's very interesting and reveals that we have something in common. My own Great Uncle served in the 2nd Bn Wilts and then ASC in WW1 and emigrated to NSW in 1921 (landing at Sydney). He settled in Victoria (Yallourn) and re-enlisted in the Australian Royal Engineers in WW2 discharging in 1946, also never serving overseas due to age. His many descendants are still there.

I do not think that the West Kent soldier and the Australian soldier are the same man, although they might perhaps be related. The eyes and eyebrows are very different, even allowing for age.

[Schrorj]

That's very interesting and reveals that we have something in common. My own Great Uncle served in the 2nd Bn Wilts and then ASC in WW1 and emigrated to NSW in 1921 (landing at Syndney). He settled in Victoria (Yallourn) and re-enlisted in the Australian Royal Engineers in WW2 discharging in 1946, also never serving overseas due to age. His many descendants are still there.

I do no think that West Kent soldier and the Australian soldier are the same man, although they might perhaps be related. The eyes and eyebrows are very different, even allowing for age.

Thanks.You've joined a family debate! The nose and chin are the same.So, the question is one a brother? The man with this history who joined The Buffs, the militrary police ,who served overseas is the same man and the only brother that went to Australia. The was another older brother that was killed at the Somme in 1916 and we are wondering if perhaps the West Kent man was him. The search comtinues! Thanks again for your help.