Souvenir Belt

[4thGordons]

I recently picked this up - not really my usual area but the badge in the middle attracted me for obvious reasons!

Unfortunately it was rather fragile and broke along the line of an old repair in transit.

I have no reason to think that the badges are not original nor that it is not a period collection but then again I have little expertise in the area of badges - so...

does this look like a "good-un"? Most of the badges have slider backs. I can post more detailed pictures of any of the badges if they are needed

I read through other threads about belt buckles etc and as far as I can tell this looks to be original and original to the belt (or at least has been on there a very long time) - there is a name written/inked into on the belt but I cannot make it out. 115 is also stamped on the leather tab of the belt.

I can identify most of the badges (which helpfully have the regiment's names on!) but I am unsure about the Canada/Lion badges - can anyone identify that for me. Are they a pair or is the Canada badge just a shoulder title and the lion something else and unrelated (Belgian perhaps?_

and finally (!) Idle speculation: Is this a random assortment of badges picked up along the way or is there a connection (eg a particular time/place) that links the units?

TIA,

Chris

last 2

[high wood]

They seem to be good and from the Great War, i.e. Welsh rather than Welch. Nothing rare or unusual and probably all original but very hard to be sure without being able to handle them. The Canadian maple leaf collar badge should have a manufacturer's name and date of manufacture on the back. My hunch is that the belt is contemporary and not made up to decieve. Would need to see the backs to be sure. Does the Australian badge have a maker's name? Do the holes in the belt seem to be contemporary or have badges been removed and others added?

[FROGSMILE]

I recently picked this up - not really my usual area but the badge in the middle attracted me for obvious reasons!

Unfortunately it was rather fragile and broke along the line of an old repair in transit.

I have no reason to think that the badges are not original nor that it is not a period collection but then again I have little expertise in the area of badges - so...

does this look like a "good-un"? Most of the badges have slider backs. I can post more detailed pictures of any of the badges if they are needed

I read through other threads about belt buckles etc and as far as I can tell this looks to be original and original to the belt (or at least has been on there a very long time) - there is a name written/inked into on the belt but I cannot make it out. 115 is also stamped on the leather tab of the belt.

I can identify most of the badges (which helpfully have the regiment's names on!) but I am unsure about the Canada/Lion badges - can anyone identify that for me. Are they a pair or is the Canada badge just a shoulder title and the lion something else and unrelated (Belgian perhaps?_

and finally (!) Idle speculation: Is this a random assortment of badges picked up along the way or is there a connection (eg a particular time/place) that links the units?

TIA,

Chris

last 2

The Lion is a collar badge of the King's Own Regiment (Royal Lancaster), and the CANADA shoulder title and Maple Leaf badge are of General Service pattern. It is a lovely belt to have and the provenance looks good to me.

[pioneecorps]

Hi

Looks to me, you have a very nice collection of cap badges, when you say, picked them up, were they given/bought.

The all brass, Welsh Regiment, cap badge:

Because of the shortage of nickle in 1916, badges previously made in bi-metal finish, I,E, brass and white-metal (nickel, were struck in all brass, which also had the advantage, of speeding up the production of badges.

In WW2, they had the same problem, with metal shortage, in 1941 Army Council Instruction ( ACI ). Announced that certain cap badges would be made in plastic.

Gerwyn

[FROGSMILE]

Hi

Looks to me, you have a very nice collection of cap badges, when you say, picked them up, were they given/bought.

The all brass, Welsh Regiment, cap badge:

Because of the shortage of nickle in 1916, badges previously made in bi-metal finish, I,E, brass and white-metal (nickel, were struck in all brass, which also had the advantage, of speeding up the production of badges.

In WW2, they had the same problem, with metal shortage, in 1941 Army Council Instruction ( ACI ). Announced that certain cap badges would be made in plastic.

Gerwyn

Although you are spot on about the WW2 plastic badges the official reason for economy badges in WW1 was not to save metals but to simplify production and thus per-unit costs.

[4thGordons]

Hi Everyone - thanks very much for your wisdom/comments.

I will photograph the back of the belt and post that for you this evening.

It does not look to me as though the badges have been changed around. There do not appear to be any stray or unused holes. All the holes in the leather look well aged and distinctly different to the fresh damage.

I am a little loathe to disturb/take the badges off but I will see if I can find marks on the rear of the ones mentioned.

Its odd - the buckle end of the belt is flexible and in great condition, even the thinner leather tongues, but it deteriorated markedly towards the other end where is is dry and fragile.

Gerwyn - the belt was purchased as a gift for me. The seller indicated he had had it for 30 odd years.

[shippingsteel]

115 is also stamped on the leather tab of the belt.

Nice badges - the 115 stamped across the end of the tab should be the length of the belt in centimetres. Just something I learnt recently about German belts.!

Cheers, S>S

[pioneecorps]

Although you are spot on about the WW2 plastic badges the official reason for economy badges in WW1 was not to save metals but to simplify production and thus per-unit costs.

Hi FROGSMILE

Cheers Mate, but I Stick with my Nickle Shortage .

Gerwyn

[high wood]

Personally, I would gently remove all the badges and treat the leather with Stubbens leather conditioner as used on sadles and harness, before replacing the badges. It cannot do any harm and might do a power of good.

[FROGSMILE]

Hi FROGSMILE

Cheers Mate, but I Stick with my Nickle Shortage .

Gerwyn

I used to think it was nickel shortage too but someone on this forum kindly posted the official documentation to prove it was a myth. It's interesting how these things can be perpetuated almost by word of mouth.

[max7474]

I agree with Frogsnmile on this one. The period record sare quite clear. Unfortunately John Gaylor's book was written before the release of the records and includes this falsehood about a shortage of nickel. If you read K&K's chapter on plastic badges they do state that WW2 was a result of ashortage of metal unlike the WW1 which was labour.

[pioneecorps]

Hi

i've been doing a bit of google searching, and you could well be right on you all brass cap badge, after saying that, there was a nickel shortage at the time of WW1, even if it did not effect the cap badge being nickel/brass to all brass cap badges.

Gerwyn

Hello Michael, Geoff,

Note the windmill sails in Geoff's photo - nickel plated with dimples. I

have a set of 4 that are in black metal and are embossed 'Meccano' (see

OPM). I would suggest that during WW1 nickel became unavailable and as new

batches of parts were made they were finished in black - obviously the first

parts to be so finished would have been the strips and other common parts

with the less common parts continuing in nickel until such a time as a new

batch was required. Has anyone ever seen a complete set in black metal?

John Lacey

A New Source of Explosives

Much was done in the field of inventing substitutes for hard to get war materiél. German scientists perfected the system of a Norwegian chemist, who had made commercially possible the process of condensing the practically inexhaustible store of nitrogen in the air into niter crystals. This eliminated the need to import minerals to make explosives. The fact that almost anything could be converted into explosives by nitration resulted in substitutes for more valuable raw materials. Before the war, cotton fiber and fat were the materials used to make nitroglycerin. But the fats that go into glycerin and the cotton that becomes trinitrocellulose could be put to better use. After a new process was developed, which substituted coal-tar in place of fat and birch and willow pulp in place of cotton, a savings in both food and clothing was achieved. Thrift, Conservation and Recycling The campaign against waste was the embodiment of thrift and conservation. All household offal had to be separated into food remains and rubbish. Food leavings, potato peels, fruit skins, the unused parts of vegetables, and the like were used as animal food. Much of the copper and brass complement of households was turned in and most copper roofs were replaced by tin. Church bells were being smelted, while in coinage, iron took place of nickel. Sweepings from the streets were being used as fertilizer and dead leaves were gathered for stable bedding. Women and children were sent out to gather nuts, mushrooms and berries in the woods and villagers were permitted to cut dead wood in state forests.

[FROGSMILE]

Hi

i've been doing a bit of google searching, and you could well be right on you all brass cap badge, after saying that, there was a nickel shortage at the time of WW1, even if it did not effect the cap badge being nickel/brass to all brass cap badges.

Gerwyn

Hello Michael, Geoff,

Note the windmill sails in Geoff's photo - nickel plated with dimples. I

have a set of 4 that are in black metal and are embossed 'Meccano' (see

OPM). I would suggest that during WW1 nickel became unavailable and as new

batches of parts were made they were finished in black - obviously the first

parts to be so finished would have been the strips and other common parts

with the less common parts continuing in nickel until such a time as a new

batch was required. Has anyone ever seen a complete set in black metal?

John Lacey

A New Source of Explosives

Much was done in the field of inventing substitutes for hard to get war materiél. German scientists perfected the system of a Norwegian chemist, who had made commercially possible the process of condensing the practically inexhaustible store of nitrogen in the air into niter crystals. This eliminated the need to import minerals to make explosives. The fact that almost anything could be converted into explosives by nitration resulted in substitutes for more valuable raw materials. Before the war, cotton fiber and fat were the materials used to make nitroglycerin. But the fats that go into glycerin and the cotton that becomes trinitrocellulose could be put to better use. After a new process was developed, which substituted coal-tar in place of fat and birch and willow pulp in place of cotton, a savings in both food and clothing was achieved. Thrift, Conservation and Recycling The campaign against waste was the embodiment of thrift and conservation. All household offal had to be separated into food remains and rubbish. Food leavings, potato peels, fruit skins, the unused parts of vegetables, and the like were used as animal food. Much of the copper and brass complement of households was turned in and most copper roofs were replaced by tin. Church bells were being smelted, while in coinage, iron took place of nickel. Sweepings from the streets were being used as fertilizer and dead leaves were gathered for stable bedding. Women and children were sent out to gather nuts, mushrooms and berries in the woods and villagers were permitted to cut dead wood in state forests.

This is what a recognized historian who has published some papers on the subject has to say:

The REASON why these "economy" issues came into being is simple. By 1916 the cost of labour had outstripped the cost of materials.

Now to the evidence, the following was signed on the 1st March 1916:

"For necessary action. For the period of the war, all badges now made partly in G.M. & partly in white metal, will be made wholly of the former. Badges entirely of white metal will remain as heretofore."

The wording to contractors was :

"The attention of the contractor is called to the fact that in many cases Badges made hitherto partly of GM & partly of GS are now required to be made of a single thickness of metal only. "

The end came in May 1919:

"The decision to the effect that certain cap badges made of gilding metal and white metal, should, as a temporary measure, be made wholly of the former, is now abrogated, and pre-war patterns are to be reverted to. "

To my mind, there is no doubt that it was the construction process that was being addressed. As you may know, there were various other measures taken with badge production at the time - such as the "solid" badges without any expensive voiding / fretting (even though some was mechanical).

[pioneecorps]

Hi FROGSMILE

You have nearly won me over, BUT, for one bit of information, missing in your " Recognized Historian" quote.

I've been through it, and I cannot find anything, mentioning a ( ACI ) number, this being so, it cannot be proved, that the all brass Cap Badges, produced in 1916, were made solely to increase production.

As we all know, history is writen my Historian's, one will give their point of view, and another, their's.

Gerwyn

[max7474]

The reference is TNA WO 359/16 p8.

I think you owe Frogsmile an apology for being a doubting Thomas!

[pioneecorps]

The reference is TNA WO 359/16 p8.

I think you owe Frogsmile an apology for being a doubting Thomas!

Hi

Thank you for providing us with the Reg., TNA WO 359/16 p8.

No, not a "doubting Thomas", just some one, who likes a good debate, after all, isn't this, what GWF about.

"He, who never makes a mistake, looses the chance of learning"

Gerwyn

[FROGSMILE]

Hi

Thank you for providing us with the Reg., TNA WO 359/16 p8.

No, not a "doubting Thomas", just some one, who likes a good debate, after all, isn't this, what GWF about.

"He, who never makes a mistake, looses the chance of learning"

Gerwyn

Yes I agree, it is all good fun and I am always up for a debate.

Many thanks to Max for posting the relevant TNA WO.