andalucia Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 Hi All I am reasearching a memorial in Liverpool and have these men. Neither is listed on CWGC LAWRENCE REDMOND My Question is...As he was discharged as unfit does it mean he is not included on CWGC? Lawrence signed up on 16th December 1914 in Liverpool, joining the King's Liverpool Regiment with the service number 23649. He gave his age on enlistment as 21 years, his address as 416 Prescot road, Stanley, Liverpool and his occupation as a Clerk. Lawrence was born in Liverpool and is single. He is 5 feet 3 inches tall, weighs 130 pounds, and has a chest measurement of 35 inches. His complexion is Dark, eyes Hazel and hair Brown. The records note that he has slight flat feet. His next of kin is given as his mother Frances Isabella Redmond of 416 Prescot Road. Lawrence is posted as a Private with the 17th Service Battalion, King's Liverpool regiment. In January 1915 he is given a weeks home leave, returning to his barracks at prescot on 15th January 1915 Lawrence falls ill with a severe head cold and is admitted to hospital in Southport. His Battalion leaves for France and Lawrence is left behind. He is then posted to the Depot on 7th May 1915 before another posting to the 3rd King's Liverpool on 20th July 1915. Then on 4th August 1915 he is posted to the 21st Reserve Battalion, King's Liverpool regiment. He is appointed unpaid Lance Corporal on 20th March 1916. Lawrence is given leave 3 weeks home leave in March 1916. He returns to his regiment at Formby camp on 1st April 1916 and is immediately sent to a field hospital at Altcar for the next 10 days due to him coughing up Phlegm. He is then transfered to the VAD hospital in Southport. Lawrence remains very ill and a medical officer looks at his case. He writes in his report on Lawrence. " Symptons started in January 1915. Severe cold in head and on chest, when he was off duty at home for one week. Afterwards he was left behind for home service, at which he continued until April 1st 1916 suffering from cough and irritability of throat during the whole time from outset until April 1st 1916, when he went home for 3 weeks. Returning to his regiment at Formby camp and being sent immediately to Altcar hospital for 10 days, and then onto VAD haspital, Southport.Suffering from Phlegm in cough, night sweats and weight loss. Present weight 7 stone 12 pounds, He says his weight on enlistment ( Dec 1914 ) was over 10 stone " The rest of the writing is hard to read. but the doctor diagnoses pulmonary tuberculosis. He also states that Lawrence should be discharged and should recieve a Army pension as his original infection is permanent. In his opinion he will be unable to work in civilian life within the next 12 months and long term will depend on how his chest reacts. On 6th June 1919 at Preston Lawrence is discharged from service as unfit for Military duty and returns home to Liverpool.His age at discharge is recorded as 22 years and 6 months, and his character as Very Good. It is probable that his mother Francis nursed him when he returned back home. Sadly Lawrence passes away in Liverpool in the second quarter ( April-June ) 1917. FREDERICK ARMITSTEAD Again a discharge No Service details have been found for Frederick but a pension record identifies him. He signed up in March 1916 as Private 5422 with the 8th ( Irish ) Battalion, King's Liverpool regiment, giving his age as 24 years and 60 days. He is 5 feet 5 inches tall, weighs 126 pounds with a chest measurement of 36 inches. His physical development is listed as good and his occupation as a Painter. Frederick's next of Kin is his father William of 12 Aviemore Road, Stanley, Liverpool. Frederick has short training with his regiment in the UK before leaving for France on 26th March 1916. Frederick is granted leave home to the UK from 25th August 1917 until 4th September 1917 before returning to France. He is hospitilised on 12th December 1917 returning to his regiment on 5th January 1918. On 22nd March 1918 he is in action in France when a gas shell explodes near to him and he is taken to a field hospital. His injuries from the gas are so severe that he is shipped back to England on 30th March 1918, and admitted to the Southern General hospital in Edgbaston, Birmingham the following day. He remains at the hospital recieving treatment until 20th April 1918, then on 26th April he is transfered to the Royal Engineers at Devonport with the service number 130156. He remains in the Uk and is again admitted to hospital from his base in Thetford on 26th June 1918 at Barnwell military hospital, Cambridge, staying there until 2nd November 1918. Clearly Frederick is suffering badly from the effects of the gas attack and medical reports take place that deem him unfit for Military duty. On 25th January 1919 he is discharged from the Army and returns home. His age at discharge is listed as 27.Just how sick was Frederick at Discharge can be seen when you realise that he died in Liverpool in the first quarter ( Jan-March ) 1919. The gas for certain sadly leading to his death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 For the cases to be put forward to CWGC the death certificates will be needed to confirm the cause of death. Will you be getting these yourself? IFCP can advise you on how to go forward Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 Clearly, Armitstead's pension records state that his condition was due to active service. His DC would confirm whether that's what killed him. The army clearly didn't think his condition was too serious, stating that the effects would last 12 months. In fact, they didn't have the chance to! Interesting that he was with the Special Brigade. Makes you wonder whose gas it was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andalucia Posted 6 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2011 Thank you both I may get the Death Certificates, it may be worth trying to get them added. cheers Ant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 If you could keep us up to date on what you intend doing as I would be prepared to get the DCs if you are not able to Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughdiamond Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 LAWRENCE REDMOND On 6th June 1919 at Preston Lawrence is discharged from service as unfit for Military duty and returns home to Liverpool.His age at discharge is recorded as 22 years and 6 months, and his character as Very Good. It is probable that his mother Francis nursed him when he returned back home. Sadly Lawrence passes away in Liverpool in the second quarter ( April-June ) 1917. Confused by your dates on this, you have him dying 2 years before discharge? As he was discharged before his death, it'd have to be attributable to his Military Service, so in his case the "Pulmonary TB" would have to be noted as being contracted during his Military Service, if that's stated in his Medical Docs and he subsequently dies of TB then you have a case, if it doesn't state in his Docs he contracted it during training, it'd have to state it on his Death cert IMHO. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 6 October , 2011 Share Posted 6 October , 2011 If Lawrence's DC confirms that he died of TB, his service record will also have to confirm that the TB was attributable to, or aggravated by his military service. If the record says that it was contracted prior to service, but not further aggravated by his service, then he will not be eligible for inclusion by the CWGC. This holds true for post-discharge deaths. If he had been still been in service at the time of his death, he would automatically be accepted. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andalucia Posted 6 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 6 October , 2011 Sorry I messed up Lawrence Redmond. He was discharged 21 June 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 I would be prepared to get the DCs if you are not able to Chris I'll go halves with you if need be. Both of these look like good runners. (And just a reminder for all our readers - IFCP is always happy to advise anyone on submitting names to CWGC/MoD. We can submit them on your behalf if you prefer,assuming we agree there is a reasonable case, based on the death certificate. In those cases, we're happy to refund the cost of the getting the death certificate to you) John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andalucia Posted 7 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2011 If you guys want to get the DC's then go for it. I was asking as I was curious as towhy they had been left off CWGC. In the case of Lawrence Redmond I think he may not be included in the future as what is to say his was caused by Military duty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andalucia Posted 7 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Deaths Jun 1917 Redmond Lawrence 23 West Derby 8b 709 Deaths Mar 1919 Armitstead Frederic 27 West Derby 8b 1250 West Derby, Liverpool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Ant they were left off probably because no one informed CWGC/The War Office of their deaths. With regard to Lawrence his TB was the result of ordinary military service so as long as his DC confirms cause of death to be the same then he should be accepted by CWGC John which of these cases do you want to take Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andalucia Posted 7 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2011 http://stannesoldswan.weebly.com/index.html Both men are listed on the Great War Memorial at St Anne's Church, Stanley, Liverpool. I am researching it at a very slow pace due to my 13 month baby taking up all my time ( would not have it any other way ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Chris Seeing as you've already made a start with Lawrence's papers, I'll take Armistead. And awaaaay we go again. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andalucia Posted 7 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Armitstead John two T's in it. Just in case you go looking and can not find him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 7 October , 2011 Share Posted 7 October , 2011 Typo. But thanks anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 9 October , 2011 Share Posted 9 October , 2011 John will get his DC ordered in the next batch Im ordering tomorrow Cheers Chris Is is OK if I ask for this thread to be moved to Non Comms Section? Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andalucia Posted 9 October , 2011 Author Share Posted 9 October , 2011 Can I just say well done you two for taking the CWGC case up for these two men. Will you keep us updated on any progress. Regards Ant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 15 October , 2011 Share Posted 15 October , 2011 Armitstead isn't a runner. Died of flu - pneumonia finishing him off as it usually did. For info, his occupation is listed as journeyman house painter. Some you win........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 22 October , 2011 Share Posted 22 October , 2011 Ant Lawrence Redmond His cause of death was TB so will be submitting him for CWGC recognition Cheers Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 18 April , 2014 Share Posted 18 April , 2014 He has been accepted REDMOND, LAWRENCERank:Lance CorporalService No:23649Date of Death:31/03/1917Age:23Regiment/Service:The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 21st Bn. Panel Reference MemorialUNITED KINGDOM BOOK OF REMEMBRANCEAdditional Information:Son of Frances Matilda Redmond of Liverpool.Grave found at Liverpool Kirkdale Cemetery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andalucia Posted 23 April , 2014 Author Share Posted 23 April , 2014 Great news. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 28 May , 2014 Share Posted 28 May , 2014 REDMOND, LAWRENCE Rank:Lance CorporalService No:23649Date of Death:31/03/1917Age:23Regiment/Service:The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 21st Bn. Grave ReferenceVIII. NC. 589CemeteryLIVERPOOL (KIRKDALE) CEMETERY Additional Information: Son of Frances Matilda Redmond of Liverpool. N.B. Recent research has shown that Lance Corporal Redmond is buried here. The Commission is in the process of producing a headstone to mark his grave. Commemoration Moved From UK BOR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andalucia Posted 29 May , 2014 Author Share Posted 29 May , 2014 REDMOND, LAWRENCE Rank:Lance CorporalService No:23649Date of Death:31/03/1917Age:23Regiment/Service:The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 21st Bn. Grave ReferenceVIII. NC. 589CemeteryLIVERPOOL (KIRKDALE) CEMETERY Additional Information: Son of Frances Matilda Redmond of Liverpool. N.B. Recent research has shown that Lance Corporal Redmond is buried here. The Commission is in the process of producing a headstone to mark his grave. Commemoration Moved From UK BOR This is fantastic. I will visit him when it has erected. Tomorrow is the anniversary of my dads death, I tend to hate this day. But this has really cheered me up, I know my dad will be cheering as well. Well done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC78 Posted 6 August , 2020 Share Posted 6 August , 2020 Headstone for L/Cpl Lawence Redmond at Liverpool (Kirkdale) Cemetery: CWGC: https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/75450421/LAWRENCE REDMOND/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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