Fromelles/Fleurbaix

[Guest aussie]

Hi everyone my name is Lucie and I'm new to this forum.

I was just wanting to know if anyone can tell me what the Germans did with the 400+ Australian soliders they captured at Fromelles. My great uncle Private William Higgins of the 30th Battalion fought and died at Fromelles. I purchased copies of his war records from the Australian War Memorial and the information I received is very conflicting. The official report is that he was killed on the 20th, various other sources say he was killed on the 19th, but others say an informat saw him being taken prisoner of war because he got cut off from the Australian line and his death recorded in Berlin as the 4th Nov 1916.

I honestly believe because so many Australians died that night, nobody really knows what happened to him and that because he went missing on the 20th it is easier to say that he died that day. Apart from wanting to know what the Germans did with the Aussie POW's, I was also wanting to know if there are any German records of that night in regards to the names of the Aussie prisoners they captured.

Thankyou

Lucie

[Andrew P]

Lucie

The soldiers taken prisoner at Fromelles were first taken to Lille and then mostly on to Germany, though quite a few of the men taken prisoner died & were buried along the way. There are photos of the Fromelles prisoners on the Australian War Memorial website.

The men captured were usually interrogated and their details taken. After this I believe the Germans passed the names on to the Red Cross.

If you can get hold of it there is a book on Fromelles called 'Don't Forget me Cobber' by Peter Corfield. It's a pretty comprehensive account of the Fromelles battle and aftermath.

Regards

Andrew

[Guest aussie]

Hi Andrew,

Sorry it has taken my so long to get back to you. Thankyou so much for your information concerning aussie Pow's taken at Fromelles. Do you know where I could find a list that would or could confirm that my great uncle was taken POW on 2/7/16.I was also wondering if anyone could tell me if there was any information on the 30th Battalion of the 8th Division floating around, I can only get some basic information from the Australian War Memorial.

Thanks

Lucie

[Andrew P]

Hi Lucie

I checked the rolls in Peter Corfield's book on Fromelles and William Higgins is not mentioned among the Prisoners of War but he is listed as having being killed with the 30th Bn at Fromelles.

I'll check the 30th Bn history tonight to see if I can see any other info on him.

Regards

Andrew

[bluedog]

Lucie

Go to the 2/30 th. Battalion AIF Assocation home

page.

The Battalion history "Galleghan's Greyhounds' is,

according to the website, now available.

Good Hunting

Bluedog

[Simmo]

Hi all,

I know it's a bit late in the day to post another note here, but as i'm a newcomer....

I had a look around Fromelles in May 01 - had a look at some of the bunkers nearby the Cobbers statue (see pic), and it looked like the farmer had ploughed the field just the day before. The amount of spent cartridges and shrapnel all around was amazing, you could literally scoop the stuff up by the handful. It turns out they were all German MG cartridges.

[Simmo]

Whilst getting lost and performing numerous u-turns, I was constantly finding more (presumably German) bunkers

[Simmo]

Which just confirms what a previous contributor said - that there was considerable and impregnible strength in depth in the area.

Simmo.

[Laurent]

There is a lot of bunkers and german shelters in this sector near Fromelle, Neuve Chapelle, Festubert and Illies. Soon i will take photos of this shelters and put them on this forum. Laurent.

[jim_davies]

Lucie,

From a brief look at the Australian Red Cross Missing and Wounded Files it appears that a large number of 30th battalion men appear in November 1916 German death lists. I wonder whether at some stage the Germans were able to identify some of the Australian bodies close to their lines, presumably while looking for documents of intelligence value.

There is also a small reference to William Higgins on page 13 of the file for Pte Frederick Jackson of the same battalion.

Jim

[Guest aussie]

Hi Jim, Andrew, Bluedog,

Sorry I haven't replyed earlier, I have had gland/fever, which is a pain because I am now more than a month behind in my uni work. Thankyou for the information. I'm still trying to find information on my great uncle, but keep hitting a brick wall.

I really want to find out what happened and the place he is likely to be buried. I know in reality it might be impossible because of the time lapse and lack of information, but it is just a piece of mind thing because his death has not so much haunted my mothers family, but it has always been known he died in the Great War, but where and when have been a mystery.

I find it so sad that his death brought so much pain and sorrow for my grandfathers family and it also haunted my great grandparents because they gave permission for him to go. My great grandmother never got over his death and never recovered until she died. In fact she almost had a breakdown when my own grandfather joined up to fight in WW2, (My grandfather was only 5 when Bruce died, so he couldn't remember what he was like)

After the war my other great uncle went to France to find out what happened to Bruce for my great grandmothers piece of mind, just so that they could find some closure but when he couldn't find out anything my mothers family was distraught. So I want to find out everything I can, to keep his memory alive and that his life was not in vain.

Just 2 more things. Andrew do you know where I can get 'Don't Forget me Cobber'?

Is it true that a mass grave of Aussie soliders was found in France last year, I only found out about it in the last couple of years. What is the latest information?

Sorry again it has taken me so long to reply.

Lucie

[Andrew P]

Hi Lucie

I bought my copy of 'Don't Forget Me Cobber' by Robin Corfield a couple of years ago from the Australian War Memorial shop. If they don't have any it would be worth checking one of the booksellers on the web; failing that your state library should have a copy.

Regarding the mass grave there was a discussion about it more than a year ago, but I can't recall if it was on this forum or the old Western Front Association forum. A few of the Pals were involved so hopefully one of them has a better memory than me, or maybe someone from that area can give an update????

Regards

Andrew

[Guest aussie]

Hi Andrew,

I ordered the Robin Corfield book from the AWM. Thanks for your help. Also what is the movie ANZACs like, I have never seen it so is it worth watching etc. Is it historically accurate from an Australian WW1 perspective?

Lucie.

[Andrew P]

The minis series 'Anzacs' is worth watching. There are some who say it's not entirley accurate but I think it does quite well in portraying what happened in places such as Gallipoli, Pozieres & Ypres.

The story revolves around a group of soldiers in the 8th Battalion AIF from enlistment to armistice.

[Auimfo]

I concur with Andrew about 'Anzacs'. I thought it was probably the closest reenactment I have seen and tries to be honest with it's approach however you must remember that there is probably a bit of poetic licence employed to make sure the TV ratings were good.

[Guest bonza]

Disagree slightly with your explanation, Tim.

The poetic licence was in attributing some of the action to the Ballarat boys.

Even the most spectacular incidents did occur, but may have been done by someone else within the AIF.

I certainly agree with your crediting the producers with realistic reenactment.

[Guest spandau]

Hi Lucie,

It seems that everyone has covered the main points to do with the death of your great-uncle, but maybe this extra information helps.

From the records available, it seems certain that your uncle was killed on the 19th/20th July and his body was recovered by the Germans. The Red Cross Missing and Wounded file on the AWM website includes a report from one of his mates saying he was cut off and captured, another report saying his identity disc had been received from the Germans, as well as copies (and translations) of German documents stating that "the Austr. Pte Higgins, W.B., 30th Austr. Batl., fell on 19/7/16 in the neighbourhood of Fromelles". The most likely scenario is that he was wounded and taken prisoner by the Germans but died soon after.

He is also mentioned in a German Death List on November 4, 1916 - this refers to the date the list was issued, not the date of death of your uncle.

If you want more information about the mass grave at Fromelles, the full text of this story is available on my website at www.diggertours.com (click on the "What's New" button and scroll down).

I also saw in your uncle's records that he was originally a Driver in the transport section of the 30th Battalion, a position which, while certainly not safe, would most likely have kept him out of the firing line at Fromelles. He reverted to Private at his own request and therefore joined the attack.

Hope this helps.

Mat

[Guest aussie]

Hi everyone,

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you, been travelling. Anyway I am half way through 'Don't Forget Me Cobber', really interesting read, very sad to read some of the personal stories of what happened that day. After reading some of them I'm not sure I have the heart to continue my search for what happened to my great-uncle on 20/7 out of fear it will be terrible which of course it will be as he did not survive.

I found out a couple of little things about him, he was only 19 and was a great cattleman who loved the land. Anyway this is all the information I have found out so far, but I have come across a really interesting article that appeared in one of the newspapers at the time talking about the attack and survivors , will have to scan it onto my computer.

will let you know what my thoughts are on 'Don't forget me Cobber', when I finish it.

[Guest aussie]

Having trouble attaching some things. I thought it was right but only one image would attach. Will try again tommorrow. I'm about to finish my last year of uni and I was just wanting to know if anyone knew of somewhere in Brisbane I could do work experience like a museum that specialises in WW1. Tried the State Museum and they have nothing. Can't do it at the AWM as too far to go. Will post the other images ASAP

Thanks

Lucie

[Andrew P]

Hi Lucie

Currently Senator Mark Bishop of the Labor Party is trying to get the government to acknowldge the fact of a mass grave behind Fromelles and that there is enough evidence of this mass grave to go ahead with further research.

They have a list (made up of information from German Red Cross records) of 160 Australian soldiers they believe to be buried in this mass grave. I had a look at the list and William Higgins of the 30th Bn is listed among these men.

Regards

Andrew

[Guest aussie]

Hi Andrew,

Do you know where I could view this list, very interested to know. I have been wondering for quite some time whether he might be in this grave. Do you think Mark Bishop will get anywhere in regards to having the sight formally investigated by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission? Do you think it is worth writing to Mark Bishop to find out anything further.

Cheers

Lucie

[Andrew P]

Lucie

It will be worth contacting Mark Bishop's Office. Before getting the Commonwealth War Graves involved they have to convince the Federal Government & the Army to investigate further.

I will e-mail you the contact details.

Cheers

Andrew

[Andrew P]

Just an update, over the past two months there have been articles appearing in each Australian state's main paper regaridng the mass grave.

The latest was in the Adelaide Advertiser on the weekend.

I would post it here, but lately articles I have put on this forum have a habit of being removed.

The fromelles mass grave issue is going to be raised in the Australian Senate again shortly.

[Andrew P]

The Fromelles Mass Grave Issue has been brought up in the Australian Senate on the 14th & 15th of June

http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/dailys/ds140605.pdf

Go to page 116

http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/senate/dailys/ds150605.pdf

Go to page 89

[Andrew P]

The transcript from the 15th June Senate Hansard regarding Fromelles.

ADJOURNMENT

Veterans’ Affairs: Battle of Fromelles

Speech

Senator MARK BISHOP (Western Australia) (7.01 p.m.)—In the last sittings I spoke on two occasions about the disastrous battle at Fromelles on 19 July 1916, in which 1,917 Australians were killed in about 12 hours. I also spoke about the fate of 1,298 of those 1,917 posted as missing, left for dead in no-man’s-land. In particular, I made extensive references to the 163 Australians whose bodies were never found but who, as we now know, were buried by the Germans behind their lines, outside Fromelles.

I raise this matter again simply because the Fromelles story, as I term it, has ignited a response I could never have imagined. In Western Australia, for example, my home state, the West Australian newspaper, to its credit, published the names of 18 Western Australians on the German list of Australians buried by them. Responses from family members made it quite clear that until this time they had had no idea what had happened to their uncle or great uncle, as it may have been. They simply knew that an uncle or great uncle had been killed, but no information had ever been provided by the relevant authorities. Inquiries to the Army by bereaved mothers were met with mute response. Mothers went to their graves never knowing what had happened to their sons, husbands and brothers.

As we know, modern families have a new interest in their family histories, but in many cases there are gaps. What we do know is that bereaved parents were advised by the Army or the Red Cross that their sons were posted as missing. In due course, personal effects in some cases were returned. War widows pensions were paid to widowed wives. A scroll from the King and a plaque in honour of the deceased may have been received. Medals too were provided. In no case I am aware of were families aware that their uncle or great uncle was in fact buried by a Bavarian unit of the German army or that they may have been interred in a mass grave outside the town of Fromelles.

This story also appeared in the Adelaide Advertiser, which revealed the names of 23 South Australians and one man from Broken Hill among the 163. The story has also been repeated in the Hunter Valley of New South Wales. Those listening may be aware that 1,000 men from the Hunter fought at Fromelles that night. They were with the 30th, 31st, 53rd, 54th, 55th and 56th battalions. Fifty-nine of them were killed or died later from their wounds. Eight Hunter men’s names appear on the German Red Cross list of the missing. By courtesy of the member for Newcastle, Ms Sharon Grierson, the Newcastle Herald and the Maitland Mercury, 14 people called in to identify themselves with those eight missing men. In few cases were they aware of their relatives’ fate.

In one case the dead soldier’s brother had travelled to France in search of his missing brother, of course without success. This search is set out in his own personal diary. This, it seems, was a common event, such was the grief and anxiety over those lost in action, never to be found again. One family has a personal diary, the last entry of which was made on the afternoon before the battle in question. It is accompanied by a letter from a mate who described to the father the dead soldier’s dying moments as he held him in his arms, how he placed the body in the German trench they had taken in such a way that he would not be trampled. In part he said:

We both arrived together in the German trenches. After congratulating one another on our luck to get there unhurt, we were parted by a rush to the dugouts in which there was great many Germans. I was only separated from him for 5 minutes when our corporal said to me “ Harry ... is hit”.

We at once went to his aid but it was of no use the wound was too fatal. He was hit fair between the shoulder blades ...

There followed in his diary some harrowing descriptions of what was done, ending as follows:

Well ... I am sorry I could not get our comrade into our lines as it was entirely impossible as we were surrounded. Some of our boys had to fight their way back that is when I got wounded. So your son would be buried behind German lines, but I hear that they had every respect given them ...

Here is more evidence of what happened to the 163 missing at Fromelles. This was clear knowledge at the time. Why was nothing done after the war to find the burial site? The reason simply was that the task of recovering bodies was enormous. Resources too were limited, and financial pressure no doubt caused work to be limited. Further, communications with the Germans were not good, as one can imagine. Access to German records was therefore difficult.

Returning to the Hunter families: some families have photographs; others have their soldiers’ medals and the bereaved mother’s plaque. On being told what happened, one family member commented that their grandmother lit a lantern in her window every night for 20 years in the hope that its light might guide her lost son home. She would have gone to her grave happy had she simply known what had happened. Now we do know, and I believe we owe it to these families to solve the complete riddle. That includes the verification of the mass grave sites outside Fromelles. As all families conclude, the dead soldier cannot be brought back, but at least we should be able to mark the spot where he is buried.

It is highly probable, I am told by experts, that the diary of the Bavarian regiment who buried these men exists in the German military archives in Munich. With respect to Australian records, those with access to the internet can search the Red Cross records held by the Australian War Memorial. Those interested should go to www.awm.gov.au, select ‘Biological Databases’ then ‘Red Cross Wounded and Missing Enquiry Bureau files’. Likewise, there is access to soldiers’ personnel files through the National Archives of Australia. These records are available online at www.naa.gov.au.

I mention this chapter in the Fromelles saga because we cannot allow it to die as an issue. We need to be satisfied about the final piece of the jigsaw as to what happened to these men. That is why we are keen for the Army to accept the strength of the prima facie evidence which has been produced and delivered to them. We need to have the sites of these mass graves surveyed by ground-penetrating radar to verify their existence. We then need to commemorate the site. We do not believe this is a great deal to ask. After all, this is a year of commemoration and next year is the 90th anniversary of Fromelles.