Don Scott Posted 24 September , 2011 Share Posted 24 September , 2011 I know someone who has recently found a fob watch which is engraved 'To Lc/Sgt Collins DCM 1918'. There is one more reference to the fact that the fob watch is a gift to a 'Hero of Hebburn' (that is Hebburn on Tyne, Co. Durham) Can anyone reading this tell me more and perhaps give the citation. I realise that some vital information is missing here...i.e. Service Number, Regiment/Battalion but i thought there might be someone here that could surmount that problem. I look forward to an answer to my very first question on the Great War Forum. Many thanks. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 24 September , 2011 Share Posted 24 September , 2011 Don, A possible - http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/31759/supplements/1220 John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Scott Posted 24 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 24 September , 2011 John, I am astounded to find that there really is something faster than the speed of light ! All we need now is the citation and I will be totally flabergasted !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 24 September , 2011 Share Posted 24 September , 2011 Don, If 11874 Collins, Albert E, is the right man then I'm afraid there might not be a citation as the January date looks like a New Year Honours award. On the subject of the speed of light it wasn't me, it was just those old subatomic particles! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15017484 John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nepper Posted 24 September , 2011 Share Posted 24 September , 2011 I'm afraid that Citations of the DCM 1914-20 doesn't add to the LG posting at all. As John says it's a New Year Honour but should be celebrated for his period of service rather than a specific act. Nigel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 24 September , 2011 Share Posted 24 September , 2011 The DCMs on that page were authorised in accordance with Army Order 193 of 1919 which deals with awards to prisoners of war, either for escaping, attempting to escape, or for services whilst a POW. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Scott Posted 24 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 24 September , 2011 John, I may be missing something here but it will no doubt be explained to me. I am fairly certain that 11874 L/Sjt A.E. Collins is our man, simply because he is described as coming from Hebburn on Tyne...the latter sort of clinches it for me because it is hardly likely that there would be any other L/Sjt Collins coming from that small town. The thing I don't understand is the Gazette date of posting (January, 1920). How would the people of Hebburn be able to give him the fob watch in 1918 or at least dated 1918. Either way, the award must have been known about by that date. I do not doubt your explanations, I just don't quite understand that there would be no citation because it was a New Years Honour award in 1920 and not for some brave action in the field at an earlier date. Don. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 25 September , 2011 Share Posted 25 September , 2011 Don, I can't explain it either. Perhaps Steve's post holds the key - "The DCMs on that page were authorised in accordance with Army Order 193 of 1919 which deals with awards to prisoners of war, either for escaping, attempting to escape, or for services whilst a POW" maybe the act for which he was awarded the DCM took place as a PoW in 1918 and was only gazetted in 1920. But that is pure specualtion on my part. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 25 September , 2011 Share Posted 25 September , 2011 Since yesterday I've double checked the various headings available under the "POWs Gazette" and those marked as "in recognition of distinguished services in the Field" or "for gallantry in the Field" can be for acts which took place when the men were captured and had not previously been dealt with because the recipient was "temporarily unavailable"! So, it is possible that Albert Collins was taken POW in say 1918, did the gallant deed then, and was then honoured on release, with the DCM being Gazetted much later. Unfortunately, these DCM awards were about the only ones in the entire war not to carry any sort of citation in the London Gazette. I would probbaly look for a DCM prsentation of some sort being mentioned in the local papers in late 1918 / early 1919. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Scott Posted 25 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 25 September , 2011 Well Gentlemen, I must thank you all for your time (and patience) in answering my question. Just one last question of John... The January 1920 suppliment only gives the initials (A. E.) for L/Sjt. Collins.Where did you find that his first name was Albert ? Lastly, it has just occured to me that a hyperthetical soldier named COLLINS (also from Hebburn on Tyne with a lower rank than L/Sgt.) might have been awarded a DCM much earlier than 1918 and his friends/family in Hebburn presented him with a fob watch in 1918 by which time he had reached the dizzy heights L/Sjt. I hope I am making some sense here and that you get my drift. I am just trying to explore every possibility. However, I am still left doubting whether Hebburn on Tyne ever saw TWO HEROES, both with the surname COLLINS, coming home from the Great War with a DCM. ...but I suppose anything is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 25 September , 2011 Share Posted 25 September , 2011 Don, He has a Medal Index card and DCM card at TNA which identifies him as Albert - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/search-results.asp?searchtype=browserefine&query=last_name%3dcollins%7cscope%3d11874&catid=10&pagenumber=1&querytype=1&mediaarray=* Local press of the time is your best bet but you could be correct, there might well be another Collins DCM from the area. I wouldn't like to bet against it John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Scott Posted 27 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 27 September , 2011 Once again gentlemen, thank you very much for your time and help. I am still left a little confused in connection with the date (1918) engraved on the fob watch when measured against the possibility of L/Sjt. Collins having been taken as a POW. He would not have been available for the presentation ceremony by his family/friends after his being taken prisoner. If the award was for services at, or during the period of captivity then it could not have been presented before capture. So, it is all a a bit puzzling for me but, as usual, I am expecting miracles here and I have to accept that some things can never be quite explained. Trust me to pick out a soldier who's circumstances don't fit in with the norm ! The only bit of light left in the tunnel is the possibility that we might just have the wrong man...so the question will have to remain open just in case we have another 'Collins DCM' who turns out to also have come from dear old Hebburn on Tyne. Regards, Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Scott Posted 28 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 September , 2011 Would you believe it? Another? Collins DCM has turned up on a memorial plaque dedicated to men of the Hebburn Working Men's Club ! He is referred to as E. Collins DCM. Question "Is this our man Albert E. Collins DCM and just that his first initial has been missed by the engraver?" So gentlemen, is there another Collins DCM to be found in the records or have we exhausted them? I would still be very surprised to find that Hebburn on Tyne had been blessed with two Collins DCMs....but you never know. I will leave it in your capable hands. Regards, Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 28 September , 2011 Share Posted 28 September , 2011 Don, According to Citations of the Distinguished Conduct Medal, 1914–1920, there are two E. Collins who were awarded the DCM - 15577 Pte. Edward. Collins 10th East Yorkshire Regiment (Shotton Colliery) - London Gazette 3/9/1918. 7659 Pte. Eugene Collins, 1st Bn. Hampshire Reg. LG 30/6/1915. Both were Privates and going by the medal index cards neither held the rank L/Sgt. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Scott Posted 28 September , 2011 Author Share Posted 28 September , 2011 Thanks once again, John. I guess that just about sums it all up for me now and there is nothing more to do but close the thread...or am I being a bit premature? 15577 Pte. Edward Collins home town is Shotton Colliery so that rules him out. 7659 Pte. Eugene Collins has no home town annotated so he could still be in with a chance with the possibility that he gained promotion later in the war after which the town of Hebburn presented him with the fob watch (perhaps a coming home thing) Please excuse my ramblings...the mark of an aging man ! Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 28 September , 2011 Share Posted 28 September , 2011 Don, Local press of the time might solve the puzzle. Perhaps your local library might hold copies in their archives. Don't close the thread anyway as other forum members might well be able to help you. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel9 Posted 28 September , 2011 Share Posted 28 September , 2011 Don, 7659 Pte. Eugene Collins, 1st Bn. Hampshire Reg. is still a possible going by the information on this website which records the sale of his medals in December 2008 and that his BW and V Medals were awarded to Sjt. E. Collins - http://www.dnw.co.uk/medals/auctionarchive/searchcataloguearchive/itemdetail.lasso?itemid=66699 John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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