P1907 'hooked quillion' bayonet questions.

[trajan]

(As my Forum colleague S>S pointed out, I originally posted this new topic in the wrong place - Politics of all places... So, here goes again in the right place this time.)

Skennerton p.188 refers to a LOC 17465, of 1915, concerning 'a leather guard attached to the hooked quillion' of the P1907 bayonet.

Two questions arise. 'Conventional wisdom' holds that after 1913, when LOC 16755 was introduced (resulting in the production of the P1907 without a hooked quillion), the hooks were systematically removed from earlier P1907 bayonets. Was there ever an official order about this? I suspect not given that some hookies were clearly in service in 1915 - and some at least have survived to this day - but it would be nice to have confirmation if such an order was issued.

Second question is: what on earth does this 'leather guard attached to the hooked quillion' look like?

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

Skennerton p.188 refers to a LOC 17465, of 1915, concerning 'a leather guard attached to the hooked quillion' of the P1907 bayonet.

I haven't got the LOC reference at hand (my book only goes to 1910) but I think if you read that passage again you will find it refers to some kind of aid for bayonet practice.

The soldiers would prepare for bayonet fighting by doing exercise drills against each other, and guards were obviously used to prevent any serious injuries from occurring.

I believe the 'guard' would be some kind of reinforced scabbard type arrangement with a blunt end for thrusting, and it says it attaches to the bayonet not just the hook quillon.

As the other LOC reference states the hooked quillon bayonets were to no longer be produced, and any already in service were to be modified whenever they came in for repair.

I think you can take the LOC statement as the order for removal of the quillons, as those were the rules that the manufacturers, contractors and armourers all took direction from.

The removal of the quillons from bayonets already in service was done whenever it suited, and I think that most of those that were still in service would have been done eventually.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

I haven't got the LOC reference at hand (my book only goes to 1910) but I think if you read that passage again you will find it refers to some kind of aid for bayonet practice. ... I believe the 'guard' would be some kind of reinforced scabbard type arrangement with a blunt end for thrusting, and it says it attaches to the bayonet not just the hook quillon. S>S

Thanks S>S! Don't suppose you or anyone else has ever seen one of these 'leather attachments'?

Trajan

[pioneecorps]

Hi Trajan

Don't know will add any more information:

16755 Sword bayonet, pattern 1907 Mark 1. C 29 Oct 1913

Future manufacture to be without hook on cross-piece.

A pattern of the above mentioned sword bayonet ( LoC 14170 ), made without a hook on the

cross piece, has been sealed to govern future manufacture.

Regards.

Gerwyn

Found more info:

17465 Sword bayonets, pattern 1907. 6 September 1915.

Provision of leather guard piece for use in bayonet fighting instruction.

When sword bayonets of the above mentioned pattern with hook on cross piece are used in bayonet fighting instruction, a leather guard piece, provided with a cord for tying it to the sword bayonet, will be placed on the blade of the sword bayonet, close to the hook of the cross piece, to reduce the amount of damage done to the sacks.

Regards, "again"

Gerwyn

[trajan]

Thanks Gerwyn,

That's that mystery solved! Mind you, interesting to see the army acknowledging as late as 1916 that sufficient hookies were still around to the extent of having to issue a LOC regarding how to 'protect' the hook in bayonet practice... The military mill sometimes ground exceedingly slowly...

Trajan

[TonyE]

Here is the relevant LoC with the drawing of the shield.

Actually, I don't find it that surprising that it took so long. The LoC is dated late 1915, only two years after the instruction. Considering that Regular battalions were posted overseas for seven years at a time, and could be in some far flung point on the NW Frontier or in Africa it might take that long. I doubt if the instruction even reached the units in the field, but was implemented next time they returned to depot by the armourers. Given that about half the army was posted overseas in 1913, that is about 120,000 men, so quite a lot of work to be done on top of all the other day to day repairs etc.

Regards

TonyE

[trajan]

Thanks TonyE, much obliged for that picture and other details.

Trajan