AOK4 Posted 23 March , 2003 Share Posted 23 March , 2003 I've seen quite a few British war diaries now (from different types of units, divisions, brigades, infantry battalions, pioneer battalions, field companies RE, artillery, medical units etc.) and what really surprises me is the difference between them in the information that is given. In some of them, there is almost nothing, while others give extended lists of casualties, promotions, soldiers on leave, soldiers getting medals etc. Some give also extensive narratives of operations while others barely mention where the unit is and what they do. Where there official rules on war diaries? Who, if any, controlled the war diaries? Another question I have is about the Field Ambulances. Didn't they keep lists of people that were attended to? Regards, Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 23 March , 2003 Share Posted 23 March , 2003 War Diaries were normally compiled and written by the Adjutant; there were, I am sure, some published notes on diary keeping, but the amount of detail in a diary seems to depend on how bothered the Adjutant could be in. In many units they saw such paperwork as a chore, and there was always the serious business of fighting to be dealing with. Others seemed to have used them as an extension of their own personal diary. What is missing from most diaries at PRO are many of the appendicies and 99.9% of the Part II orders which were burned/destroyed when the diaries were moved to the PRO - because they contained the names of men executed. These Pt II Orders contained a wealth of information which many researchers would now love to have; to get a tantalising idea of what they were like see the 1/RWF diary for 1916 which has a full set; one of the few (perhaps only?) diary to still contain them. Also remember that in big battles, when a lot of officers get hit, the amount of detail is often small - because the Adjt relied heavily on speaking to other officers about what had happened, and may have even become a casualty himself. In RAMC units Admissions and Discharges were not noted in War Diaries, except in terms of actual numbers. There were seperate A&D Books which are kept in PRO MH106; however, I believe less than a 1% sample were kept of the ones that survived. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AOK4 Posted 23 March , 2003 Author Share Posted 23 March , 2003 Thanks for the explanation, Paul. When I read your reply, I was really surprised at the amount of information apperently destroyed before the files were moved to the PRO. This leads to the conclusion that, although their archives were for about 75% lost by air raids, ist is easier to find things about the German army than about the British... As far as the files or not burnt (or perhaps in some obscure Russian or American archive), nearly everything is still present (appendices, maps etc.). Why exactly did they destroy everything? Only for privacy reasons? Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 23 March , 2003 Share Posted 23 March , 2003 I have to admit that I have always been intruiged by the content of war diaries. All too often the one you want consists of the basic narrative of ...nothing of importance.. 2 ORs killed .... Lt. Col Reed went on leave.. moved out of line... I recall one ASC diary for Salonika which read for each and every week: Monday ... Unit strength (number) ... 5 New rrivals ... 1 OR went on leave Saturday ... 7 lorries ... 2 motorbikes and 1 car repaired this week I came to the conclusion that it just depends whether the Adjutant, or whoever wrote the diary at his behest, was of a literary ilk or not. Some diaries are real works of art and literature with superb descriptions. Suddenly the handwriting changes and someone who regards it as a chore and not a challenge takes over. The well written ones are an absolute joy to read. I understand that all units were required to keep a war diary, but that this was eventually relaxed for home based units, which is why the diaries for these units sometimes peter out. Having said that I fully expect someone to explain that it was not a simple as that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 23 March , 2003 Share Posted 23 March , 2003 Actually not all units were required to keep diaries; in 1917 a GRO stated that Labour units need not necessarily keep diaries; which is why there are so few Labour Corps war diaries in WO95. Jan - the problem in the 60s was that there was little awareness of WW1 outside of the veterans. So no pressure groups to argue that this was histoically important material - Ministry of Defence officials thus destroyed anything they considered 'suspect' and because of the mention of men SAD, the PtII orders all went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 23 March , 2003 Share Posted 23 March , 2003 Jan The Field Service Pocket Book 1914, Chapter 8, sets out the objectives of war diaries: To furnish an accurate record of the operations from which the history of the war can subsequently be prepared. To collect information for future reference with a view to effecting improvements in the organisation, education, training, equipment and administration of the army for war. It then goes on to list the type of material that should be recorded. There is too much to list here but includes: All important orders, despatches and instructions; daily situation, arrivals, departures, camps billets and bivouacs; duties; detailed account of all operations, important occurances and timings; Changes in establishment and strength. Casualties: for officers names and ranks, for other ranks number of casualties only. Nature and description of field works constructed. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 23 March , 2003 Share Posted 23 March , 2003 If the intention in the 60s was destroy what was suspect, who made the decision that the CM files of the SAD men would be retained ? Seems to defeat the object. Jock Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 24 March , 2003 Share Posted 24 March , 2003 I agree Jock; they also kept a file which listed all those executed, when and for what crime; this was found by Julian Sykes and formed the basis of the book 'Shot At Dawn'. There doesn't seem to be any reasoning behind it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 24 March , 2003 Share Posted 24 March , 2003 I'd dearly like to have a look at the War Diary of the 1st Royal West Kents for the period 20th August - 1st September 1916..... They were in great-grandad's (below) brigade... Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 24 March , 2003 Share Posted 24 March , 2003 Not sure if this was standard policy but certainly most of the Bedfordshire Regiment battalions kept duplicate war diaries. These are on the standard diary pages but are carbon copies of the original. The Bedfordshire Record Office has these duplicates and interestingly they also contain many other records not retained in the PRO originals. As an example, the 7th Beds diary contains the full detailed orders for the attack on Pommiers Redoubt, 1st July 1916, as well as a full list of killed and wounded with service numbers. Likewise for the September attack at Thiepval. Also included are the CO's draft reports to the 54th Brigade Commander, as well as many of the Part II orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 24 March , 2003 Share Posted 24 March , 2003 Just after the war all the record offices of every regiment made typed copies of the original war diaries. I suspect this was done with one eye towards a future Official History of the war. They exist now in the archives of many regimental museums, and County Records Offices. Sadly some have disappeared as regiments have been disbanded, amalgamated and amalgamated again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 24 March , 2003 Share Posted 24 March , 2003 Hi Paul These are not typed but genuine handwritten carbon copies of the originals I have studied at the PRO. In particular I had difficulty reading some of the names of the men killed on the 1st July 1916, due to smudging of the carbon. I checked the diary in the PRO and the same list was included in the same handwriting but obviously in original indelible pencil. John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 25 March , 2003 Share Posted 25 March , 2003 Inspection of the Part 11 orders would have shown very clearly the inconsistencies when it came to "awarding" punishment for potentially capital crimes. When they were destroyed probably very few people outside of the MoD were aware of the value these papers would have had to any group like SAD. To have destroyed totally the court martial papers may have met some resistance, better to "weed" them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 26 March , 2003 Share Posted 26 March , 2003 Hi Paul These are not typed but genuine handwritten carbon copies of the originals I have studied at the PRO. In particular I had difficulty reading some of the names of the men killed on the 1st July 1916, due to smudging of the carbon. I checked the diary in the PRO and the same list was included in the same handwriting but obviously in original indelible pencil. John. Sorry John - I forgot to mention that war diaries themselves were also in triplicate - one copy went to base records, one to central records (the master copy) and one to the Regiment. That is what you have seen; some adjutants seemingly kept them... I have handled examples in private collections over the years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 28 March , 2003 Share Posted 28 March , 2003 Thanks Paul. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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