Martini Henry

[Old Tom]

In a recent thread in this forum Harry Flashman reported that he had found the remains of a 577/.450 Martini Henry round; he did not say where. Of course the 'real' Flashman served all over the world when Martini Henry's were common.

Were Martini Henrys much used in WW1 and by whom? By the way I thought they were Martin Henris.

Old Tom

[4thGordons]

In a recent thread in this forum Harry Flashman reported that he had found the remains of a 577/.450 Martini Henry round; he did not say where. Of course the 'real' Flashman served all over the world when Martini Henry's were common.

Were Martini Henrys much used in WW1 and by whom? By the way I thought they were Martin Henris.

Old Tom

Martini actions rechambered for .303 saw service in WWI in second line and training units in the early days of the war (there have been some threads in the past that have reproduced pictures - I have one of ASC men with Martini Carbines) also, no doubt Maritinis in the original calibre (and all sorts of others!) were present in some locations (I suspect in India, on the NW Frontier, and probably in Africa too - although I would imagine usually in the hands of local forces rather than regulars).

I would think that cadet groups (and possibly also Volunteer home-defence forces) in the UK may also have had Martinis. Quite a lot of Martini actions were rebarrelled by the gun trade (Greener and Bonehill were two of the contractors) in .22 calibre for use in "miniature ranges" and these were commonly used to train in basic marksmanship so the actions were used, but if your question is about Martini-Henrys in the original calibre (as per the original cartridge case found in the other thread) I doubt that they would have seen service with regular forces, and certainly not on the Western Front.

The one exception I can think of is early in the war heavy calibre hunting rifles were collected and used for the early sniper/counter-sniper work and I suppose it is possible that Martini based rifles saw limited use in this context.

Cue picture of the "Umpteenth Numptyshires" at Ypres armed with Martinis?

Chris

[TonyE]

Not quite Ypres,Chris, but certainly Martini-Henry rifles and carbines in the original .577/.450 inch calibre were used by both the RFC and the RNAS in the early part of the war.

Such was the shortage of rifles that the Admiralty bought 500 M-H rifles back from the trade for use by the RNAS in October 1914.

Royal Laboratories, Woolwich, developed a special anti-Zeppelin bullet for the Martini which saw reasonably extensive use, but little success, in 1914-15. It was known as the RL "Flaming Bullet" and a picture is attached.

With regard to .303 inch Martini Enfields, the Admiralty bought 500 surplus M-E carbines from the trade in April 1915 and 2,000 surplus M-E rifles in February 1916 and issued these to armed trawlers and other miscellaneous craft.

regards

TonyE

[MikB]

The one exception I can think of is early in the war heavy calibre hunting rifles were collected and used for the early sniper/counter-sniper work and I suppose it is possible that Martini based rifles saw limited use in this context.

Chris

For some reason the Martini action doesn't seem to have found much favour with the big Express sporting rifle makers. Most of those used Mauser-derived bolt actions or side-by-side doubles. There were occasional Farquarson and other types of falling-block lever actions, but I don't recall ever seeing a Martini-actioned heavy game rifle.

Since the Martini action is reliable, relatively easy to make, was at that time well-known and understood by many in the trade, fast in use and can be very strong, this is quite hard to understand.

Regards,

MikB

[TonyE]

I agree with you Mik, most big game rifles of the falling block type were Farquarsons or similar, and not Martinis.

in fact, although the War Office approached all the leading gun makers in 1915 to buy big game rifles, by December they had only managed to purchase 52 rifles, virually all of them doubles. One of the problems was that the trade wanted at least 20 Guineas for a basic rifle compared to about £4 for an SMLE. Despite this, there was a fair amount of use of .470 NE rifles and ammunition and at one point serious consideration was given to rebarreling Pattern '13 rifles to .470. Improvements in the capability of .303 inch armour piercing ammunition (replacement of the Mark VIIP and VIIF with the VIIW) made ths unnecessary.

Regards

TonyE

[clive_hughes]

I seem to recall being told by the South Wales borderers Museum (long ago) that the rolled-brass Martini cartridges used in the Zulu War were manufactured by the Societe Francais des Munitions de Chasse, De Tir et de Guerre. That being the case, and assuming their products could be bought by civilians, could examples have been dropped around the Western Front by the ubiquitous pre-War French hunters?

On another tack, I saw in a church hall in Carmarthen a cupboard type rifle-rack which a little research revealed had housed Martini carbines for the local Church Lads Brigade pre-WW1. I think the lads were used to guard bridges in the first days of the war - but hopefully they wouldn't have issued ammo to them!!

Clive

[shippingsteel]

Here is a LINK to a parallel thread on another forum - they basically came to the same conclusion about the use of the Martini-Henry rifle in the GW.

Also an interesting note from our TonyE regarding the lifting and using of photos without permission ... so glad that sort of thing doesn't happen on this forum.!

And that cartridge is starting to look a little grubby, perhaps its nearly time for a wee bit of spring cleaning.? Though I can see why it might, getting around like it does.!

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Here is a rather oddly attired highlander - photographed in Blackpool with a full length Martini Rifle.

Perhaps we can add "Photographer's Prop" to the list of Great War uses of the Martini?

Chris

[TonyE]

I seem to recall being told by the South Wales borderers Museum (long ago) that the rolled-brass Martini cartridges used in the Zulu War were manufactured by the Societe Francais des Munitions de Chasse, De Tir et de Guerre. That being the case, and assuming their products could be bought by civilians, could examples have been dropped around the Western Front by the ubiquitous pre-War French hunters?

On another tack, I saw in a church hall in Carmarthen a cupboard type rifle-rack which a little research revealed had housed Martini carbines for the local Church Lads Brigade pre-WW1. I think the lads were used to guard bridges in the first days of the war - but hopefully they wouldn't have issued ammo to them!!

Clive

SFM certainly made large numbers of .577/.450 Martini rounds, but so did vitually every other European ammunition maker. However, I don't think they ever made rolled brass cases, only normal drawn cases. I cannot be 100% certain though as being non-British and commercial it is outside my area of interest.

The issue of Martinis in both .450" and .303" to cadets and similar organisations was quite common, and the carbines were obviously a better length for boys. We even had a few in the school armoury as late as the 1960s.

My favourite though is this picture of the Surrey Sea Cadets taken in the early 1920s somewhere near Box Hill. They are aremed with ex Royal Navy WWI Winchester Model 1892 rifles.

S>S - that round is actually not as dirty as it looks in the picture. Also, given its rarity I have no intention of spoiling its patina!

Regards

TonyE

[Harry Flashman V.C.]

Here are somemore Martini Henry spent cartridges I found yesterday.

Old Tom I found them on the sea cliffs near Whitehaven.

[TonyE]

Here are some rolled case .577/.450 rounds in slightly better condition!

Mark II, Mark III, Contract E, Mark III Kirkee Arsenal India.

Regards

TonyE

[trajan]

My favourite though is this picture of the Surrey Sea Cadets taken in the early 1920s somewhere near Box Hill. They are aremed with ex Royal Navy WWI Winchester Model 1892 rifles.TonyE

What a fantastic picture! And that rifle would just about fit between the 'instructor's' feet and his nose!

Trajan

[Old Tom]

Many thanks for all that. Come to think of it the BBC series Wings had an observor armed with a Martini Carbine (presumably their modest size waa a factor). As a cadet at school in the late 40's I recall a rack of Martini carbines which younger boys used for drill.

Old Tom

[Pete1052]

During the middle 1960s the firm Interarms imported tens of thousands of Martini-Henry rifles into the U.S. They also imported some Remington rolling blocks. Many of them had marks in Arabic, which makes me think they came from the Muslim states of India. They could be had for a song but I was too young to buy one legally.

[bushfighter]

Many Martini Henrys were used in Africa during the Great War.

Lee Enfields were gradually issued to operational field units but probably a few isolated static units still held Martini Henrys when the war ended.

The Rhodesia Native Regiment was initially issued with Martini Henrys:

http://www.kaiserscross.com/188001/389101.html

The Northern Rhodesia Police went to war with Martini Metfords and Martini Henrys:

http://www.kaiserscross.com/188001/363401.html

When fighting at very short ranges in thick bush the Martini Henry round would put an enemy down for good.

After local troops had been issued with Lee Enfields a constant problem was the successful maintenance of fire discipline in order to conserve ammunition.

Harry

[Pete1052]

After local troops had been issued with Lee Enfields a constant problem was the successful maintenance of fire discipline in order to conserve ammunition.

I've never quite understood how fire discipline could be maintained once magazine repeaters, semi-automatics and now the assault weapon types of firearms arrived upon the scene. In today's world it seems nearly impossible for junior officers and NCOs to give fire orders by voice during the noise and din of an engagement.

Training within small units is probably the solution -- never use fully automatic except for during assaults, meeting engagements or other desperate situations. After the first 5 or 10 minutes of an urgent situation return to aimed fire, have a good sight picture and fire one shot at a time.

[trajan]

... fire one shot at a time.

I agree in principle, but that's why Custer lost at the Little Big Horn. US Army mentality then - 'Don't give the soldiers those repeating rifles that are now available - they will fire too many bullets at one time and bullets cost money!'. Indian mentality? 'Fire as many bullets as fast as those Winchesters can!' Mind you, funny to see how recent events show various nation's soldiers/armed 'rebels' firing away at willy-nilly with no apparent grasp of the AK's three rates of fire system...!!!

Trajan

[Pete1052]

I doubt the Indians had many Henry or Winchester rifles at the Little Bighorn. Though the archeologists have dug up some of their cartridge cases I doubt that more than a dozen or two of those rifles were there. (I'm curious how many of those cases have actually been excavated on the battlefield -- a low number might mean only two or three of those rifles were there.) The main reason Custer lost was because there were too many Indians.

Undisciplined firing that wastes ammunition is a problem in the armed forces. How to bring it under control continues to be a matter of interest to those of us concerned about such things.

[4thGordons]

I doubt the Indians had many Henry or Winchester rifles at the Little Bighorn. Though the archeologists have dug up some of their cartridge cases I doubt that more than a dozen or two of those rifles were there. (I'm curious how many of those cases have actually been excavated on the battlefield -- a low number might mean only two or three of those rifles were there.) The main reason Custer lost was because there were too many Indians.

Undisciplined firing that wastes ammunition is a problem in the armed forces. How to bring it under control continues to be a matter of interest to those of us interested in such things.

Bit off topic but there is an interesting display at Rock Island Arsenal in Illinois of cartridge cases recovered from the Little Big Horn as well as a couple of cavalry rifles (which can be matched to some of the cases by the firing pin marks) - one thing that the display makes obvious was how many and varied the calibres being carried by the cavalry were.

Currently large numbers of Martinis and variants thereof have been imported into the US from the famed "Nepalese cache".

Chris

Here is one of mine (not Nepalese):

[James A Pratt III]

It's been awhile but I understand at the LBH battlefield site using balistics fingerprinting have identified at least 55+ winchester and Henry repeating rifles in used by the indians.

[trajan]

It's been awhile but I understand at the LBH battlefield site using balistics fingerprinting have identified at least 55+ winchester and Henry repeating rifles in used by the indians.

Yes, what follows is rather off-topic, but it might be of interest to some as it follows on from the above. I don't have my notes to hand, but off-hand I recall that ballistics fingerprinting indicated that on Last Stand Hill the Indians used - I think - as many as 100 or so different types of muskets and rifles, including Winchesters - and towards the end also US Army Springfields that were picked up from dead cavalrymen (which is why Springfield bullets were found to have been fired into LSHill). As I remember it, the single shot Springfield, while admittedly longer range and more accurate than the Winchester, was chosen for service use by the US military mainly to prevent soldiers from indiscriminate firing... And now, very much off-topic, but as for exactly why Custer and his contingent were wiped out, I think it was a combination of a lack of proper reconnaisance leading to an over optimistic pincer attack plan and a division of his forces before attacking without realising just how many Indians were there, some of them at least with superior repeating rifles.

Trajan

[Pete1052]

I suspect that the U.S. Army's decision around 1870 to adopt the "Trapdoor" series of single-shot weapons in .45-70-caliber was influenced by the desire to make maximum use of the existing production machinery at Springfield. There is also some commonality of parts between the Trapdoor and the earlier .58-caliber Springfields. It was a period of low funding for the military and money was a problem. The "not invented here" factor vis-a-vis the design of the repeating Spencer may have also influenced the decisions made at Springfield.

Ammunition resupply was and is an Ordnance function in the U.S. Army. During the Civil War Cavalry units armed with the magazine-fed Spencer were known for rapidly expending their ammunition during engagements. That led to the first magazine cut-off in arms history.

[trajan]

During the Civil War Cavalry units armed with the magazine-fed Spencer were known for rapidly expending their ammunition during engagements. That led to the first magazine cut-off in arms history.

Thank you Pete! I teach a course on how archaeology and historical records fit or don't fit, as the case might be, one of the classes being Custer and LSHill, so this thing about the cut-off is one little extra gem I can add to the relevant class! And also, while I have previously emphasised the part played by the use by the Sioux, etc. of the Winchester, now I now more about the Martini Henry I can add that one to my power point!

Trajan

[Pete1052]

During the late 19th century there were a lot of inventions for small arms being made in North America and Europe, including this one.

[Old Tom]

I bet Harry Flashman had no idea that his mention of Martini Henri rounds would lead to Custers Last Stand. A tangled web!

Old Tom