Observer Aces?

[mcderms]

Were there any high scoring obervers in WW1? I have read that their kills were credited to the pilot?!?! After noticing that the Flying Pals seem to concentrate on the glamour boys with wings, I wonder how many other flyers (on any side) ended the war with 5+ credited kills.

I'll watch this topic with interest!

[Theo]

I think there might be a book in the 'Over the Trenches' 'Above the Lines' series which deals with notable observers/two seater crews.

[mcderms]

Thanks Theo but I am VERY disappointed in the Flying Pals response here. Surely there are some people out there whose interest strays beyond what essentially was a bunch of middle class public school boys avoiding getting their feet wet in the trenches.

Does no one not know more about the unsung heroes with half-wings?

[Terry]

mcderms,

Get a copy of "Above The Wae Fronts" which gives great coverage of the British (that is RAF/RFC/RNAS) two-seater bomber pilots, bomber observer, and two-seat observer aces.

Some amazing totals listed, including Cubbin (21), Edwards (21),Fletcher (26), Gass (39), Hayward (24), Newland (22), Noel (24), and Powell (19) amongst the two-seat fighter aces; Dickson (14), Stewart (16), Waller (11), and Stubbs (11) from the bomber pilots,; and Christian (9), Naylor (14), and Rhodes (11) of the bomber observer/gunners.

[Terry_Reeves]

Try the "Aerodrome" website, which often gives details, not only of pilots but of observer aces. The details are updated periodically.

As it happens, I have in my possession, an identity bracelet to Lt Lllewellyn Crichton Davies MC , an observer ace with five "kills" to his credit. He won his MC at High Wood on the Somme in 1916 whilst with in command of a trench mortar battery, but was tragically killed whilst undergoing pilot training on Salisbury Plain in March 1918, having joined the RFC in 1917.

[Dolphin]

As well as the British services, other major aviation nations in the War had observer 'aces', such as France's Sergent Adolphe du Bois D'Aische and Germany's Leutnant Georg Ritter von Hengl, both of whom were credited with 6 victories.

However, the number of victories attributed to British observers was increased by the policy of crediting both the pilot and the observer when an enemy aircraft was defeated. So McDerms is correct in stating that the pilot was credited for an observer's victory, but the reverse also applied.

In addition, credit for a victory was sometimes given to more than one aircraft crew, eg credit for a Fokker D.VII shot down by the Bristol Fighters of No 20 Sqn RAF on 25 July 1918 was given to Lt D E Smith and 2Lt J Hills in C4672, Capt H P Hale and 2Lt F J Ralph in C4718 and Lt W M Thomson and Sgt D C Summers in C843. In this case the defeat of one enemy aeroplane resulted in six victories being credited.

[alanthevet]

My grand-uncle, 2nd Lieutenant E.P. Hartigan was an observer, credited with 5 victories. His pilot, Capt. D.S. Hall was credited with 6 victories, achieving his first one before teaming up with my grand-uncle.

They flew a DH4 bomber with 57 Squadron.

They were both credited with 4 victories on 2nd October 1917 at 1.35PM over Roulers. I have read Captain Hall's report, and from it, it is clear that the pilot was responsible for two of the victories and the observer for two.

Both were killed following a crash on 20th November 1917, the first day of the Cambrai offensive.

The book 'Above the War Fronts. The British Two-Seater Bomber Pilot and Observer Aces, The British Two-Seater Fighter Observer Aces, and the Belgian, Italian, Austro-Hungarian and Russian Fighter Aces 1914-1918' by Normal Franks, Russell Guest and Gregory Alegi sumarises each of the victories.

[Terry]

I recall that German two-seater crews were each given credit for an aircraft shot down, although single seat fighter pilots were not.

[Guest Biplane pilot]

Definitely not! Jagdfliegern were definitely credited with aerial victories: more than 6,000 of 'em.

The RFC/RAF figures are skewed in that gunners often were credited only with victories attributed to them but pilots got credit for 'em as well.