Round headed 303 bullet

[Harry Flashman V.C.]

Found an unfired round headed 303 bullet while out with the metal detector today before it emptied down.

Does anyone know the dates these were made before the more traditional 303 bullet we all love.

I think I also found a squished Martini Henry cartridge that has been fired

[4thGordons]

Found an unfired round headed 303 bullet while out with the metal detector today before it emptied down.

Does anyone know the dates these were made before the more traditional 303 bullet we all love.

I think I also found a squished Martini Henry cartridge that has been fired

Sounds to me like you found a MkVI round. (as in cartridge case and bullet)

This can probably be confirmed if you can discern the headstamp on the cartridge case.

The very earliest .303 rounds which were powder filled were introduced in 1889-90 (Mk I), cordite filled rounds were introduced in 1891

There are then a succession of short lived variants with the Mk VI being introduced in 1903 and subsequently produced in large numbers up until @1912. There were very large stocks around at the outbreak of the Great War even though the MkVII with the more familiar "Spitzer" (pointed) profile bullet had been introduced in 1910. There was an ongoing program to resight earlier rifles for this round when war broke out.

So I suspect you have a MkVI round - but headstamp details will let TonyE tell you for sure.

Chris

[TonyE]

Your round nosed .303 inch bullet could date from anywhere between 1889 and 1917

.

There were eight marks of round nosed .303 inch ammunition between the Blackpowder Mark I of 1889 and the introduction of the spitzer (pointed) Mark VII in 1911. Use of the round nosed Mark VI continued well into WWI for the Territorial Force and for training of regular units in the UK.

Unless it has a hollow nose it will not be a Cordite Mark III, IV or V.

Please post a picture.

Regards

TonyE

[TonyE]

As so often happens, our posts have crossed!

Actually, the Ball Mark II probably had a longer life that the Mark VI, as it was introduced in 1893 and served until the introduction of the Mark VI in 1904. The only difference between the two was the slightly thinner envelope of the Mark VI.

Production of the Mark VI for British service continued in small numbers until about 1917 and the very last production of Mark VI was in 1956 for Rhodesian Territorial forces!

Regards

TonyE

[pioneecorps]

Hi

Would these help:

Please bear in mind, I'm no expert on this.

The first one is British, and has the markins:

K 11, V1.

The second one is German, and has the markins: ( which look like ).

04, S, S, 8. ( the four is the other way of putting it down ).

Regards.

Gerwyn

[Harry Flashman V.C.]

Here they are although the base has corroded too far to make any markings out.

[TonyE]

It probably is a Mark VI but without knowing the headstamp it is difficult to say.

You are quite right about the other one, it is the remains of a .577/.450 Martini Henry round.

Gerwyn - your .303 is a Mark VI made by Kynoch in Birmingham in 1911 and the German 7.92mm M88 round was made at Spandau in August 1904.

Regars

TonyE

[pioneecorps]

It probably is a Mark VI but without knowing the headstamp it is difficult to say.

You are quite right about the other one, it is the remains of a .577/.450 Martini Henry round.

Gerwyn - your .303 is a Mark VI made by Kynoch in Birmingham in 1911 and the German 7.92mm M88 round was made at Spandau in August 1904.

Regars

TonyE

Hi TonyE

Thank you for the information on them, the German one by the way is a lighter ( Trench Art ), I've always wondered

why it was called Trench, as I cannot picture a soldier in a trench, banging away at a brass shell case, trying to turn

it into art.

Hope you don't mind me asking, can you help me with these:

On the base, I have:two with G 14 V11 and two with G 15 V11, I cant make out the other one,

they all have a recess in the base, drilled cases and wooden bullets.

Regards.

Gerwyn

[Harry Flashman V.C.]

Thanks 4thGordons & TonyE for the info, a couple of nice finds after 10 years since I was last out with a detector hopefully out again tomorrow if the weather permits

All the best

Dazz

[George Armstrong Custer]

WFA Chairman Bruce Simpson, one of a party of us currently exploring the Gallipoli peninsula, found a round headed 303 bullet in Gully Ravine this afternoon.

George

[4thGordons]

WFA Chairman Bruce Simpson, one of a party of us currently exploring the Gallipoli peninsula, found a round headed 303 bullet in Gully Ravine this afternoon.

George

Before Tony explodes.

The bullet is the projectile, the case contains the powder. Collectively these two when assembled are referred to as "a round" or a "cartridge"

So - we are talking about "rounds" or "cartridges" containing a round nosed bullet as opposed to the spitzer (pointed) bullet in the later cartridges.

Therefore, what was discovered intially and what was found on Gallipoli was a cartridge containing a rounded (or round-nosed) bullet!

Right TonyE

[TonyE]

Right on, Mr.McD!

Pioneercorps - your rounds are "Cartridge S.A. Dummy Drill .303 inch Mark III", and the cases of yours were made by Greenwood & Batley of Leeds in 1914 and 1915. The actual dummies may well have been made elswhere from the fired cases at a later date. Contracts to make these dummy rounds were given to all sorts of organisations during the war.

The Mark III was originally introduced in 1903, but when the pointed Ball Mark VII round was introduced in 1911 the Mark IV dummy was approved with a matching pointed wood bullet. It proved fragile in service however, the point of the wood bullet frequently breaking, so the Mark III was re-introduced a year or so later and continued in service until the end of the war.

It was not until 1917 that a harder wearing dummy with a jacketed bullet came into service.

Regards

TonyE

[SiegeGunner]

Therefore, what was discovered intially and what was found on Gallipoli was a cartridge containing a rounded (or round-nosed) bullet!

But what if all that Bruce Simpson found was the pointy bit — well, the round-pointy bit, anyway ...?

I am unclear, incidentally, why that expedition is raking up British bullets — I thought its mission was to look for evidence of Turkish women snipers ...

[truthergw]

But what if all that Bruce Simpson found was the pointy bit — well, the round-pointy bit, anyway ...?

I am unclear, incidentally, why that expedition is raking up British bullets — I thought its mission was to look for evidence of Turkish women snipers ...

As any fule no, these women were sniping in order to steal British ammo and id discs. Follow the trail of dropped bullets, cartridge cases and complete rounds and it must lead to the powder room used by the women between forays. It is probably superfluous for me to mention that they emerged from the powder room via a Sally port..

[SiegeGunner]

It is probably superfluous for me to mention that they emerged from the powder room via a Sally port...

So-named, of course, after the celebrated warrior Sally Aladdin ...

[pioneecorps]

Right on, Mr.McD!

Pioneercorps - your rounds are "Cartridge S.A. Dummy Drill .303 inch Mark III", and the cases of yours were made by Greenwood & Batley of Leeds in 1914 and 1915. The actual dummies may well have been made elswhere from the fired cases at a later date. Contracts to make these dummy rounds were given to all sorts of organisations during the war.

The Mark III was originally introduced in 1903, but when the pointed Ball Mark VII round was introduced in 1911 the Mark IV dummy was approved with a matching pointed wood bullet. It proved fragile in service however, the point of the wood bullet frequently breaking, so the Mark III was re-introduced a year or so later and continued in service until the end of the war.

It was not until 1917 that a harder wearing dummy with a jacketed bullet came into service.

Regards

TonyE

Hi TonyE

I thank you for all your help, its been very interesting, I have had these rounds, with the others, for a long time, though I'm no collector of ammo, I also have tow 18 pd's, the one I have, that I would love to find out about, is a 25pd, its " appart from the hole in its base, solid metal.

Regards.

Gerwyn

[TonyE]

But what if all that Bruce Simpson found was the pointy bit — well, the round-pointy bit, anyway ...?

I am unclear, incidentally, why that expedition is raking up British bullets — I thought its mission was to look for evidence of Turkish women snipers ...

In case any Pals should bump into young Mr.Simpson on his underground hunt for lady snipers in Gallipoli, I post the picture below in order that they might easily recognise him.

...and yes, it really is Bruce.

Regards

TonyE

[George Armstrong Custer]

Therefore, what was discovered intially and what was found on Gallipoli was a cartridge containing a rounded (or round-nosed) bullet!

No it wasn't. I don't recall seeing you in the Gully Mon Ami Mate, which may be why you don't know that what Beachcomber Bruce found was a round nosed bullet, sans cartridge. Had it been complete with cartridge I'd have said so. Interestingly there was a regular 303 bullet embedded in the soil just inches from the rounded one - though that is probably just coincidence, as the debris carried down to the flat lower reaches of Gully Ravine where the bullets were found is almost certainly carried there by flooding from rain each year.

I can tell Messrs Forsyth and Rutherford that the women sniper re-enactors out here have been great sports in the bar at the end of each day - but before they ask, no there's no photos of them as they are very shy and retiring creatures.

George the Efes King

[4thGordons]

No it wasn't. I don't recall seeing you in the Gully Mon Ami Mate, which may be why you don't know that what Beachcomber Bruce found was a round nosed bullet, sans cartridge. Had it been complete with cartridge I'd have said so. Interestingly there was a regular 303 bullet embedded in the soil just inches from the rounded one - though that is probably just coincidence, as the debris carried down to the flat lower reaches of Gully Ravine where the bullets were found is almost certainly carried there by flooding from rain each year.

Apologies. Quite correct I misread your post in the light of the early post.

Glad to see you have ammended the description here to "round nosed" as opposed to "round headed" !(I am not sure Cromwell was ever at Gallipoli unless in the company of women snipers - you never can tell with the puritans)

Chris

[trajan]

Hang about, some of you guys are currently digging at Gallipoli? Here I sit in Ankara, a trained archaeologist (ex-English Heritage Field officer, now a university lecturer), and I am on university vacation - I could have offered my services... Hope your museum representative is friendly! Please don't get me wrong, but some members of this forum do have training in how to dig and how to deal with any ordnance that is discovered in the process - and therefore might be able to offer help. I am NOT saying that you are not doing this correctly and according to Turkish law - but it might help you in future projects if you advertised via GWF for any help needed.

Trajan

EDIT: regarding post 17 - you brought your own buckets?! These are not standard Turkish issue (but nor is the hardhat, but that's another matter!)

[TonyE]

Sorry Trajan, but that was posted in jest. We are not digging in Gallipoli.

Bruce and I are both members of the Durand Group and that picture was taken on one of our projects in France (with the full involvement of the French archeological authorities I might add). Also, we are well equipped with experienced EOD members.

I would dearly like to explore the fighting tunnels at Gallipoli though, but I doubt if it will ever be a practical possibility.

Regards

TonyE

[trajan]

Phewwww... You had me a might worried there! But there again, I did wonder about the 'English' buckets...!!! Seriously, though, there are small number of us archaeologists on the GWF who might be interested in assisting with WW1 excavation projects for free in spare time (usual [family, etc.] constraints accepted). Just let us know! I can believe you have the right guys already (hey, he's got a hardhat on!).

I also agree that Turkish regulations (and basic disinterest) would make archaeological work at Gallipoli nigh on impossible. In Turkey the state educational system goes by the book: this is the written history so why bother with the (arte)facts? I jest not! Each year I take my 1st students to Gordion of King Midas fame: it is slap bang in the middle of the 1922 Sakarya Battlefield - the battle that turned the tide for Turkey in the War of Independence. Do they register that fact? Is the battlefield advertised? Is it protected?

BUT back to this thread proper. I do sometimes see roundnosed bullets in their cases on sale in Ankara. And I do appreciate the comments made so far on this thread about dating these - and next time I will check the ones I see for markings. So thanks for all that!

TrajanI

[TonyE]

I don't know what round nosed bullets/cartridges turn up in Ankara, but it would be quite in keeping if they were .303 inch. Of course, there will also be round nosed Turkish/German 7.65mm cartridges.

In Gallipoli the ANZACs would have been using round nosed Mark VI ball, as they would have done in Palestine. Also, due to the shortage of SMLE rifles the Lowland Division was sent to Gallipoli armed with (long) Lee Enfields, again using Mark VI ammunition.

With regard to the Durand Group, although we are amateurs in the true sense, we are a very professional group in respect of our approach to projects, equipment, risk assessment etc. As I said in the previous post, a fair proportion of us are also experienced EOD personnel plus we have a number of professional archeologist members, so worry not about us.

Cheers

TonyE

[George Armstrong Custer]

Hang about, some of you guys are currently digging at Gallipoli?

No Bruce isn't digging Gallipoli - which would have been very archaeologically naughty of him, as you say. That pic is actually of the probe he took the opportunity of running under Troy during our visit there last Thursday. Just in case Schliemann missed any of the shiny stuff. As Tony has noted, it doesn't look dissimilar to numerous Bruce operations with the Durand group in Frogshire. The giveaway is the Turkish government approved Mycenaean dig buckets - which I mention to avoid raising any ex-English Heritage blood pressures in Ankara......

George

[trajan]

The giveaway is the Turkish government approved Mycenaean dig buckets - which I mention to avoid raising any ex-English Heritage blood pressures in Ankara...... George

Yes, time to get deeper into Troy - go for it Bruce! As for those government-issued Mycenaean buckets ('Late Helladic Ware B', methinks), they are probably ones the Ottomans brought back with them after loosing Greece in the 1830's, and in storage ever since just in case they came in useful one day. I suspect something similar with some of the Turkish erstaz bayonets, those with blades that look distinctly Iron Age in origin, and so perhaps brought back from the La Tene cemeteries after the failed siege of Vienna... And doubtless when I get around to looking at all the round-headed bullets with cases I see for sale in shops here I'll discover that they are left-overs from Custer's Last Stand, subsequently bought up by a snakeoil merchant, re-sold to the Ottomans as guaranteed 'Victory bullets', and now re-issued as part of a plan (with me as the unwitting agent) to lure GWF members to Turkey in search of rare examples of the same...

Trajan (whose blood pressure is back to the usual just above normal!)