converted 1916 BSA SMLE *

[nick ward408]

Hi chaps,

I've always wanted a SMLE MK III * so to day I shelled out £350 to buy one! moment of madness? anyway taken it all to bits and every stamp and number match for a BSA 1916, however she has been re-wooded in 1943 and this is stamped on the stock along with M.A. Lithgow . S.M.L.E. III *. The story go's she spent time in the Western Desert in ww2 with the Aussies. Anyway in 1983 the weapon was sold again in Lincolnshire as .410 conversion for £120 and in 1991 the owner decommissioned it for £100.

Anybody throw any light on how common this weapon maybe? not bothered about its value as I kinda like the idea she had a long working life.

Just like to know a little of her life.

kind REgards

Nick

[4thGordons]

There is an old adage - buy the rifle not the story.

The Western Desert story in nice but there is no way of verifying it (or for that matter probably of denying it).

It is generally virtually impossible to say much about the life of a particular rifle and it's service history with any reliability except in exceptional circumstances

Pictures would be nice (pretty please?)

Probably a more likely story is that the rifle was supplied to Australia post WWI (as a lot were) and was restocked and refinished by them during WWII (although 1943 refinish would be pretty late to make it back to the Western Desert wouldn't it?) Australian WWII refinished WWI vintage British rifles are not at all uncommon - although they usually have some indication of Australian ownership on them (military district marks 2MD etc, or D^D or arrow in a D) does the rifle have a serial number on the buttstock with the other markings?

Couple of other tell tales - what sort of nosepiece does the rifle have? and what is the finish on the metal? Is the barrel dated? Many WWII refinishes had new barrels fitted and some had the metal "parkerised" (a greenish grey colour) - originally it would have been blued.)

BSA made about 435,000 MkIII* rifles in 1916 with the serial number prefixes Z ,(None), A, B and C.

Would like to see pics!

Chris

[shippingsteel]

Its a possible scenario, the Australian troops were fighting in the desert in North Africa during 1941/42 before being recalled to defend Australia from the Japs.

The 9th Division in particular underwent a serious reorganisation in early '43, refitting and retraining for jungle warfare, when the rifle could have been refurbed.

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Here is a 1918 BSA MkIII* that was supplied to Australia and had a long service life with them, gradually being downgraded to a drill/non firing weapon (the paint stripes)

Apart from ownership stamps - it gives no obivious indication of a refurb.

Chris

[nick ward408]

There is an old adage - buy the rifle not the story.

The Western Desert story in nice but there is no way of verifying it (or for that matter probably of denying it).

It is generally virtually impossible to say much about the life of a particular rifle and it's service history with any reliability except in exceptional circumstances

Pictures would be nice (pretty please?)

Probably a more likely story is that the rifle was supplied to Australia post WWI (as a lot were) and was restocked and refinished by them during WWII (although 1943 refinish would be pretty late to make it back to the Western Desert wouldn't it?) Australian WWII refinished WWI vintage British rifles are not at all uncommon - although they usually have some indication of Australian ownership on them (military district marks 2MD etc, or D^D or arrow in a D) does the rifle have a serial number on the buttstock with the other markings?

Couple of other tell tales - what sort of nosepiece does the rifle have? and what is the finish on the metal? Is the barrel dated? Many WWII refinishes had new barrels fitted and some had the metal "parkerised" (a greenish grey colour) - originally it would have been blued.)

BSA made about 435,000 MkIII* rifles in 1916 with the serial number prefixes Z ,(None), A, B and C.

Would like to see pics!

Chris

Hi Chris,

Love to send you pics but beggared if I can get them to attach! drop me a mail at ww1tommyresearch@yahoo.co.uk and I will forward them on if you would like a peek.

Try to explain markings from back to front.

Butt plate is brass no marks. Butt stock is marked M.A. and below LITHGOW and SMLE. a large III* and then below that 1943.

Wrist, G.R. BSA. Co. 1916. Sht L.E. III*

Bolt, B and serial no.

breech/barrel 1916 with same B serial, but has a G.R. cypher with what looks like cross flags and a P under.

Windage Sights, same serial no but a P prefix.

under foreend stock, very faint to read but a four figure number and below 43, then two more stamps but too badly worn to read.

Foresight is all wrong it would seem, numbered wrong and looks like a D prefix.

All blued metal but has obviously been blacked at some point in its life as comes off with a thumbnail readily.

timber is complete with 'fingers'

Hope it helps, or drop me a mail.

Thanks again for your interest.

best

Nick

[godwinson]

Nice acquisition Nick. Shame about it being a deactivated one though, still that's unfortunately the ways things have gone with the tightening (or stranglehold) on gun legislation in the UK. One of the many plusses of having moved to New Zealand is that it's still like pre-Dunblane (and earlier) days here. Although bizarrely you need approval from your local police arms officer to import a bayonet.

Your SMLE reminds me of the ones we used to have in the army cadets at school back in the late '70s. Our PSI used to "decode" all the markings etc to attempt to show which unit(s) and theatre(s) where they might have served. And then he'd always finish by telling us that we were just the latest in a long line of people who'd been privileged to have used the Enfield product and that we were therefore part of a continuum of military service going back to the Great War and beyond.

Good to see that 35 years on from that and nearly 100 years on from the outset of the GW that SMLEs contemporary with that conflict are still very much alive and kicking.

[4thGordons]

Nick - email inbound.

Black paint that scratches off is usually a sign of Indian Service - but if yours did end it's service life there it seems to have avoided most of the usual modifications.

Interesting that it has a windage adjustable sight - those were usually gone by 1916, may be a retro fit.

Look forward to the piccies.

Chris

EDIT

Butt plate is brass no marks. Butt stock is marked M.A. and below LITHGOW and SMLE. a large III* and then below that 1943. AUSTRALIAN MARKINGS as you know

Wrist, G.R. BSA. Co. 1916. Sht L.E. III* ENTIRELY STANDARD AND CORRECT

Bolt, B and serial no. B PREFIX CONSISTENT WITH YEAR OF MANUFACTURE

breech/barrel 1916 with same B serial, but has a G.R. cypher with what looks like cross flags and a P under. CROSSED FLAG P IS A PROOF MARK - I WOULD HAVE EXPECTED OTHER BRITISH COMMERCIAL PROOFS GIVEN IT WAS CONVERTED TO .410

Windage Sights, same serial no but a P prefix. WINDAGE SIGHTS A BIT ODD BUT THERE WAS A CHANGEOVER PERIOD AND POSSIBILITY OF RETRO-FITTING LATER. ARE YOU SURE IT IS A P AND NOT A POORLY STRUCK B?

under foreend stock, very faint to read but a four figure number and below 43, then two more stamps but too badly worn to read. PROBABLY SERIAL NUMBER AND DATE SHOULD BE SERIAL OF THE RIFLE BUT IF IT IS REPLACEMENT WOOD RATHER THAN AN AUSTRALIAN REFINISH COULD BE ANOTHER SERIAL.

Foresight is all wrong it would seem, numbered wrong and looks like a D prefix. REPLACEMENT PART THEN - WHAT TYPE OF NOSEPIECE IS IT? (I'LL LOOK AT PHOTOS)

All blued metal but has obviously been blacked at some point in its life as comes off with a thumbnail readily. RELATIVELY THICK BLACK ENAMEL, WHICH REMOVES EASILY IS COMMON ON RIFLES THAT SAW INDIAN SERVICE.

[4thGordons]

Couple of Nick's pics

Windage adjustable rear sight, unusual but not unheard of on a 1916 rifle. It is also fitted with the earlier round (as opposed to slab sided) cocking piece.

Nosepiece - later replacement type of WWII and later vintage without the milling for the stacking swivel. Produced in both Australia and India. Finish on this looks Indian (black paint) but markings would tell for sure.

Chris