Mystery bullets from Dover

[Phil Eyden]

I found these five bullets yesterday in the moats of the 1860s moats of the Western Heights at Dover in Kent. They were in a section of the moat that sometime prior to WW1 had been converted into a rifle range. The range was used by soldiers mainly at the Grand Shaft barracks right up until and including WW2.

I would like to ask for opinions as to what gun they could be from? They are non-jacketed and made of lead with three rings with rifling marks. I attach a picture with them next to a .303 round from another site to show the difference in calibre. The base is extemely concave.

I initially thought they were from a Martini-Henry but they look a bit too short. A Webley revolver perhaps? I suspect a WW1 or immediately pre-WW1 date is most likely.

Thank you.

[centurion]

Schneider?

[MikB]

I think they're .455 Mk.II ball, fired most probably in a Webley Mk.VI revolver - the rifling looks like it could well be 7-grooves RH.

265-grain lead HBRN at about 620 fps IIRC.

Regards,

MikB

[TonyE]

You beat me to it Mik! I was half way through answering when I was interrupted. Anyway...

The .455 inch Ball Mark II was introduced in July 1897 and served until superceded by the jacketed Ball Mark VI in September 1939. (The "manstopper" Ball Mark III and IV having been declared illegal and the Mark V being a special target load). They could have been fired in any of the Marks of Webley revolver up to the Mark VI (not introduced until February 1915)

Here are is the line up of Webley/Enfield rounds from .476 Mark II to .455 Mark VI. Your .455 inch Mark II are fourth from the left.

Regards

TonyE

[Garron]

Schneider

I think you mean Snider,

Gaz

[MikB]

They could have been fired in any of the Marks of Webley revolver up to the Mark VI (not introduced until February 1915)

Regards

TonyE

Of course. I don't know the rifling pattern of the earlier models but it seems unlikely the Mk.VI represented any new design departures in that respect - but I'd guess its production quantities outnumbered all other Marks combined?

Regards,

MikB

[centurion]

I think you mean Snider,

Gaz

Amazing how you can't read my mind. No what I typed is what I meant as in

"Good Friday of 1868 saw the first engagement. The British were using their new 'Schneider' rifle for the first time. Results were devastating: 500 Ethiopian dead (including Theodore's trusted military advisor, Chief Gebre) and 1500 wounded; all within a space of three hours. "

"I here make the observation that had I been present in the area in the 1880s I like to think that I would have been a fair and reasonable man, yet the high probability is that I would have strapped on my .44 revolver, taken down my Schneider or Martini-Henry rifle, and ridden on revenge bent with the police patrols."

However I only suggested it as being the precursor to the Martini Henry

[Phil Eyden]

Thank you very much for your most helpful replies - much appreciated. I can confirm that they do indeed have seven grooves.

So, as for dating, they really could be any date between 1897 and 1939. We know the rifle range was used extensively just before and during WW1, so to me that is the most likely date. Shame it's impossible to prove!

Cheers!

[centurion]

it's impossible to prove!

Get one of those TV forensic scientists (as in Silent Witness, Waking the Dead, Body of Proof etc) and they will within 24 hours be able to tell you the hour, day, month and year and what aftershave the firer was wearing - at the same time dealing with their own considerable hang ups.

[TonyE]

Too true Mr.C!

I think the rounds were probably fired about 10.30 am on the 15th June 1915 by a young officer who's wife was having an affair with a junior NCO, whilst struggling with his own sexuality (I can tell from the rifling marks!)

As if...

Cheers

TonyE

[Phil Eyden]

Well, whilst sitting at home bored I managed to extract some DNA from a tiny amount of tissue left in the score marks. From my analysis I have been able to conclude that the soldier who fired the bullet had ancestors who arrived from Scandinavia in longships roughly about 07:14 on the 8th March 876 AD.

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)

[Garron]

I'm well aware of the .577 Snider (originally a conversion from the 1853 Enfield, similar design path to the French Tabatiere rifle)

Quite amazing how its spelt Snider on the rifle though...

I'll take that over a unreferenced quote any day as proof.

Gaz

[59165]

Did the forefathers of R.j.Mitchell's grand design not win the Snider trophy ?

Sorry.

That was a bit schnide.

[TonyE]

Touche, mon brave!

Cheers

TonyE

[David B]

Its getting worse and worse.

[ianw]

As Kipling wrote in praise of the Snider's power :-

"A Snider squibbed in the jungle -

Somebody laughed and fled,

And the men of the First Shikaris

Picked up their Subaltern dead,

With a big blue mark in his forehead

And the back blown out of his head."

[MikB]

As Kipling wrote in praise of the Snider's power :-

"A Snider squibbed in the jungle -

Somebody laughed and fled,

And the men of the First Shikaris

Picked up their Subaltern dead,

With a big blue mark in his forehead

And the back blown out of his head."

But later...

"... a hush fell over the river,

And a silence came to the shore,

And Bohs that were brave departed,

And the Sniders squibbed no more..."

(except of course in the hands of a few eccentric enthusiasts on target ranges )

The Kipling's from memory so please excuse a word or two out of place.

A pity about the officer's wife. If he'd worn aftershave (was it even available?) perhaps he might've avoided the problem.

Regards,

MikB