The Gentry in Ireland

[Joe Walsh]

I've been doing rather a lot of work recently that is related to the landed gentry in Ireland. Particularly where I am from in Galway, Ireland I know who the local landlords were. However, in trying to expand from these names I've found it increasingly hard to separate landed gentry from upper middle class and even to discern one from the other.

Its perhaps an elementary question, but on my part I don't feel it to be so. How do I tell was landed gentry in 1918-22? Must they have a title, e.g. Lord, Duke, Baron? And then what about MPs - I mean wouldn't they be in House of Lords and all I woul then have to is check which Irish men were in the House of Lords? Or can I turn to Burke's landed gentry?

And then, is it really going to paint much of a picture if I don't actually consider the wealthy upper middle class who owned large farms, who were MPs and whose sons could buy commissions int he army adn attend Oxbridge like the landed gentry could?

I'd very much appreciate your help in how I can recognise the landed gentry in Ireland and whether in researching their state of affairs in Ireland during 1914-1922 and onwards it might be better to also consider the rich families which weren't landed gentry?

Joe

[centurion]

And then, is it really going to paint much of a picture if I don't actually consider the wealthy upper middle class who owned large farms, who were MPs and whose sons could buy commissions int he army adn attend Oxbridge like the landed gentry could?

Buying commissions in 1914 -1922! Wow Ireland must have been different (or perhaps they owned a time machine!)

I think you need to think about your definitions more carefully. Not all owners of Irish estates lived in Ireland for example (that old vexed issue of the absentee landlord) - did these qualify as landed Irish Gentry? And just who was gentry anyway. Looking at the Irish (manly Sligo or Donegal) side of my family going back to the early 1800s which included successful barristers, government administrators, senior C0I clergy etc (the majority educated at Trinty College Dublin) many would have regarded themselves as gentry but none were landed [in contrast on my Father's English side - going back to the late 1500s - many were landed and landlords owning a number of farms but none would have regarded themselves as gentry].

[Joe Walsh]

Buying commissions in 1914 -1922! Wow Ireland must have been different (or perhaps they owned a time machine!)

I think you need to think about your definitions more carefully. Not all owners of Irish estates lived in Ireland for example (that old vexed issue of the absentee landlord) - did these qualify as landed Irish Gentry? And just who was gentry anyway. Looking at the Irish (manly Sligo or Donegal) side of my family going back to the early 1800s which included successful barristers, government administrators, senior C0I clergy etc (the majority educated at Trinty College Dublin) many would have regarded themselves as gentry but none were landed [in contrast on my Father's English side - going back to the late 1500s - many were landed and landlords owning a number of farms but none would have regarded themselves as gentry].

Well, those are the questions I asked, more or less.

[CarylW]

Would these online books at archive.org help Joe?

http://www.archive.org/details/agenealogicalan05burkgoog

A Genealogical and Heraldic Dictionary of the Landed Gentry of Great Britain and Ireland (1863) Author: Sir Bernard Burke.

and Volume 2 here:

http://www.archive.o...calhera02inburk

A genealogical and heraldic history of the landed gentry of Great Britain & Ireland (1894) Author: Burke, Bernard, Sir, 1814-1892; Burke, Ashworth P. (Ashworth Peter), 1864-1919

Would help you to work out who was landed gentry

Caryl

[Compo]

I think you need to clarify what is meant by "landed gentry'.

My opinion is the most meaningful definition is who thought of themselves as "landed gentry", a state of mind rather than a set of qualifying facts.

I definetly would not see the answer in titles, even Irish titles, many English persons were granted Irish titles which were in name only, example; Viscount Lord Galway's name is George Rupert Monckton, lives in Canada and I doubt has ever visited Galway far less benefited from any income from there.

If your object is to relate who in Ireland volunteered to fight in WWI and see how prevalent this was, consider that the line of inheritance for "lands" is that all of it went to the eldest son and his heirs, younger siblings usually having to choose between the Church, the Army and if well enough educated, some professions. A lot of your Army volunteers will have been younger sons who were professional soldiers and who owned no lands at all. They are still included in Burke's Landed Gentry however, as they belonged to a family that did.

In addition consider families who had landed estates at one time but who have not been in that position for many generations, you will find them included in Burke's for they still consider that they belong to that "class".

In short, being Landed Gentry is a state of mind and that is most likely to have been the fact that infuenced their decision to join the military or not in WWI. Burke's Landed Gentry of Ireland is your answer.