GWRCo Posted 15 July , 2004 Share Posted 15 July , 2004 Hi all! just to let everyone know that there is up for auction on ebay uk, a fake 1stww period fld dressing! This is the Feb 1916 dated one by 'John Bell & Croyden Ltd' . I have emailed the seller, who has it at a start price of £40.00! There have been previous threads about these particular ones, and i have also been stung myself! I didn't get the cut down ffd's - i got lengths of black blanket! Tim W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chip Minx Posted 18 July , 2004 Share Posted 18 July , 2004 Tim, Could you post a picture of what a fake one looks like? It would be nice to see the markings and construction. Thanks, Chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 18 July , 2004 Share Posted 18 July , 2004 is this it??? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...2257173101&rd=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sweeney Posted 18 July , 2004 Share Posted 18 July , 2004 bkristof, Yes, that is the offending Dressing. Chip, Unfortunately, the fake is real good. Best clues are maker and the specific date. Other than that you'd have to open the dressing up. Search for posts by Grovetown, He posted the original warning and a description of the interior. Joe Sweeney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 18 July , 2004 Share Posted 18 July , 2004 This looks like one of the reproduction ones aimed at re-enactors. If anyone is going to War & Peace this week many of the manufacturers will have stalls selling similar items for the re-enactors market. Look closely at the auction pictures - the writing at the top in particular, it is extremely clean and shows no age. Problem is, as discussed in the recent 'fake' thread that a simple bit of artificial age distressing makes such items far harder to detect without actually handling them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 18 July , 2004 Share Posted 18 July , 2004 As Joe says, these - externally - are very good indeed. In fact, I wouldn't find it incredible if someone had actually turned up a stock of original, unused packets and thought it would be a lark to fill 'em. From the outside, and unopened, and beyond the date etc; the best giveaway (with 20/20 hindsight) is that they are too thick and too firm. They were sold to me with the explanation that they were water-damaged and had swollen and set hard. Fell for it at the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 18 July , 2004 Share Posted 18 July , 2004 However, the innards - albeit clever - are cobblers. As you can see the packet is made from a kind of orthopaedic zinc plaster... I'll post a snap of the innards' innards in due course. I have a suspicion who produced these, and frankly feel that re-enactors who won't accept items distinguishable from originals - even just a made-up maker for honesty's sake - aid and abet the fraud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 18 July , 2004 Share Posted 18 July , 2004 Speaking as a re-enactor. We use WW2 ones. We don't even need reproduced WW1 likes... So as said these are made with a certain aim.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 18 July , 2004 Share Posted 18 July , 2004 Dear Kristof Good for you that you can live with a look-a-like! Sadly, so many producers of this kind of stuff blow their own trumpets about how close it is to the original. And they market it to re-enactors. If there was no re-enactment demand for 'exactly the same' reproductions, they'd find it a lot harder to produce and sell them economically or legally. (Incidentally, I'm under the impression that the Broad Arrow has a similar legal status to hallmarks - and that it is (still) a criminal offence to reproduce it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkristof Posted 18 July , 2004 Share Posted 18 July , 2004 I can't believe a re-enactor will pay 40 £ for a first field dressing repro... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 18 July , 2004 Share Posted 18 July , 2004 Kristof - well someone is. One bidder thus far. Tim: i have also been stung myself! I didn't get the cut down ffd's - i got lengths of black blanket! Obviously, by the fact that you alerted the forum to the fake, you're not one of the inconsiderate re-enactors who contribute to this mess. But I note from your 'Irish Company' re-enactment Web site that "Within the unit, many members are capable of making museum quality reproduction items". Do these members of The Irish Company identify or label their 'museum quality' repro's as such - or will you, me, Giles etc end up getting 'stung' by buying one as the real thing in a few years time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 18 July , 2004 Share Posted 18 July , 2004 Do these members of The Irish Company identify or label their 'museum quality' repro's as such Grovetown, A great point. Maybe pressure could be put on the manufacturers of specific re-enactors kit (ie the reputable companies advertising in Skirmish and The Armourer) by the larger re-enactor groups to clearly put a distinguishing mark in a similar vein to the original broard arrow on all items? For instance a bold 'R' - this could be placed inside uniforms, within dressings or perhaps stamped into metal objects. Ok, it could be removed by shady dealers and some may argue it would spoil the supposed 'authenticity' of said items but it would cut down a bit on the likely scenario in the coming years of miraculous hordes of Great War kit appearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWRCo Posted 18 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 18 July , 2004 Hi guys! sorry i couldn't reply earlier, been doing early shifts - it's a killer! I'm quite tempted to email the bidder about the FFD being fake, but i'd probably end up getting some nasty virus sent thru email from the seller!! Do i or don't i let the bidder know? It seems to be one of those 'damned if you do/damned if you don't' types. The fake FFD being advertised is the same as mine but mine had been age stained - probably tea n coffee! Whilst the 'inner' dressing covers look to have been made from a cut up respirator bag as they are khaki canvas! The label is the same, and also had attached to the top a safety pin in it's wrapper which probably came from a 2ndww issue one! Inside this, the item was a cut off piece of thick black blanket wrapped in white masking tape! I bought mine a few years back from 'Trident Arms' in London, and it was only a few days back that i read another thread about the fake FFD's and decided to have a closer look, and unpicked it. To say i was a wee bit upset is an understatement!! Now, if it had been sold to me as a repro, and was marked up with a fake 'R' stamp/fake 14 'crows-foot' 18 stamp to show that it was a repro, then i wouldn't have minded. But at the time, i paid £25.00 for it - not including the recorded delivery charge!! Yes, i agree that repro items should be marked as such, and the repro items that i get made are all copied from originals, but, i actually have my own rubber stamps (which are used with paint) to actually mark/show them as repro's! As they say - what goes around comes around. a mate of mine thought he'd struck gold when he came up with a "unissued" mills bomb spanner, so he let me look at it, then i pointed out the stamping on it which should have read GWRCo, R, 14 crowsfoot 18. The dealer he'd bought it from had done a very good job with ageing it, and had filled in some of the detail, whilst partially erasing some detailing on it, and when i asked how much he'd paid for it, he told me about £20 odd quid! I told him that it was one of my repro's and that he should go back to the dealer to try and get his money back - he could've bought it direct from me for £5, including P & P! It goes to show that although there are those of us out there who are honest and do take the time to mark things up as repro, there are also those who will try to pass it off as original! Understandably, it is very annoying, and particularly for me. There i am, letting people know that the few repro items i get made up are repro, and are marked as such, yet, there are those who are unscrupulous who will blatantly rip people off, it really does sadden me. At the minute i am replicating some of the scarcer british 1stww cloth trade/rank badges such as the RFC OR's rank badges which are aimed at collectors (to fill a gap until an original is obtained), re-enactors (who don't want to use original items), and museums (who may not be able to afford originals), and i have them embroidered onto modern felt which is a satin type finish and not matt, so people know they are repro as well as the stampings on them - i have had people ask if i can get them embroidered onto a more 'period' cloth, but i say no, because somewhere along the line, someone will try selling one of my marked repros as a original. tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 19 July , 2004 Share Posted 19 July , 2004 Dear Tim Great reply and thanks. If there were more like you out there, the rest of us would suffer far fewer insecurities and your approach is totally commendable. Thanks for that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWRCo Posted 19 July , 2004 Author Share Posted 19 July , 2004 Hi G! no worries - i wish there were a lot more people like me out there too who make up the repros and mark them as such! I take a lot of time in doing research, checking variants, etc, to get the items spot-on. My attitudes always been that if you're gonna do the job - then do it properly first time! I've seen some really ropey repro items, and some of it is just laughable! I'm more than happy to use repros if the originals are virtually unobtainable, and i'm even happier if they are marked as such. With regards to living history, i'd sooner use repro items than originals. I would never choose to wear an original tunic & trousers because they are too precious, and if the repro one gets damaged, it can be mended, whereas with the original, i would be crying over it! Bye for now, tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris P Posted 13 March , 2005 Share Posted 13 March , 2005 Hmmm........Just going thru these old threads, & discovered this one. I was unfortunate enough to purchase this particular dressing, from a seller who assured me it was genuine; After the act, when I was warned some months later they were fakes, I opened it......enough said. !! Seller refused a refund. I attempted legal action but was informed I had no proof he tried to decieve.....i.e. he sold it in good faith. Now I find he had already been advised it was a fake. I am mildly annoyed! As an experienced collector, I take a knock when I'm caught out! A small consolation that I'm not the only one! I agree with all previously said about the 'fakes', as opposed to 'reinactor' quality. We all know that these ARE made to decieve, & I have a real bee in my bonnet about these people! (Someone mentioned hanging)! I would have been quite happy to have got an email from someone in the know that I was bidding on a fake. I thought I had all the angles covered by checking the seller new it was real.....not so. Personally, I have emailed several potential buyers of various items if I see or know something wrong, who have always been grateful! Would the original poster, who informed my seller it was a fake item like to give me any more info! Thanks! Chris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 13 March , 2005 Share Posted 13 March , 2005 Hmmm........Just going thru these old threads, & discovered this one. I was unfortunate enough to purchase this particular dressing, from a seller who assured me it was genuine; After the act, when I was warned some months later they were fakes, I opened it......enough said. !! Seller refused a refund. I attempted legal action but was informed I had no proof he tried to decieve.....i.e. he sold it in good faith. Now I find he had already been advised it was a fake. I am mildly annoyed! As an experienced collector, I take a knock when I'm caught out! A small consolation that I'm not the only one! I agree with all previously said about the 'fakes', as opposed to 'reinactor' quality. We all know that these ARE made to decieve, & I have a real bee in my bonnet about these people! (Someone mentioned hanging)! I would have been quite happy to have got an email from someone in the know that I was bidding on a fake. I thought I had all the angles covered by checking the seller new it was real.....not so. Personally, I have emailed several potential buyers of various items if I see or know something wrong, who have always been grateful! Would the original poster, who informed my seller it was a fake item like to give me any more info! Thanks! Chris. Very unfortunate Chris. Nowadays your purchase could be covered by insurance if you paid with PayPal, or am I mistaken? Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris P Posted 13 March , 2005 Share Posted 13 March , 2005 Trouble is Robbie.....Paypal cover is by means of them pursuing the seller, & persuading them to cough up, against the threat of suspension/ sanctions......They don't hand over the dosh themselves.! I have only used their services once, when an item never arrived......An honest seller, he refunded immediately......but his loss, not paypals! I'd like to make a point to this, which I feel is important, given the concern of us all regarding the amount of fakes about in general. It is killing the hobby. A friend of mine who has collected WW2 German for 30 plus years, has just sold up in despair. He no longer gets any enjoyment out of it. He spent most of his time arguing the authenticity of bits he was buying or selling. No fun = no hobby. Fakes are improving year on year. We have all been caught. This forum, which I am fairly new to, seems to be the ideal place to pool information, & let unsuspecting innocents know. The more this is done, on sites like eBay, the more it will discourage dodgy sellers. I am watching three items ending today that are faked/ bodged/ altered......Do I let the winner know my feelings. Yes! Not because I'm a pain in the a*** do gooder, but because its not right, it's spoiling what I enjoy, & hard earned money is getting ripped off people. Not least, it devalues what we ALL enjoy. We should all put our mouths where our morals are. I feel a bit better for that.... Chris P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 13 March , 2005 Share Posted 13 March , 2005 I am watching three items ending today that are faked/ bodged/ altered......Do I let the winner know my feelings. Yes! Not because I'm a pain in the a*** do gooder, but because its not right, it's spoiling what I enjoy, & hard earned money is getting ripped off people. Not least, it devalues what we ALL enjoy. We should all put our mouths where our morals are. I feel a bit better for that.... Chris P. If you are absolutely certain the three items are fakes I would email the seller(s). However, I have done this on 2 occasions in regard to suspect art deco ceramics. With one of these items I also emailed ebay. No action was taken at all. Not sure whether it is OK to email the bidders, though. Anyone else have an opinion on this? Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris P Posted 13 March , 2005 Share Posted 13 March , 2005 Robbie; The sellers know they are selling fakes! It would do me no good emailing them. Same as the guy with my field dressing. eBay item 6516274354 (Ends 13-Mar-05 18:51:00 GMT) - ROYAL MARINE 1937 SMALL PACK WITH CONTENTS This one.(sorry don't know how to link it)! Totally put together rubbish. All original! NOT! 1949 pattern French sewing kit. Rest cheap bits. So what, I hear you say. But this is the fourth 'small pack grouping' like this he's sold in a few months. ALL with the same 1949 pat French sewing kit! All with the same other bits! Original? I'll eat my hat. He's theiving. He's made over £200 on these. My interest.....? I bought the first one.....didn't know better. That's one of three today. One of about 60 items I've seen this week alone that are wrong. Total value? about £3000. Nice work if you can get it........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in minnesota Posted 13 March , 2005 Share Posted 13 March , 2005 After reading this thread, I had a look at my "Original" field dressing and sure-enough, It's one of those stinkers. I have posted an ebay listing to alert other potential buyers of what to look for. Let's see how long it takes for ebay to decide that this is bad for their reputation, and end the auction. here is the auction #: 6518441472 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redbarchetta Posted 13 March , 2005 Share Posted 13 March , 2005 Well this thread has been a thoroughly depressing read !!! The poor chap giving up collecting WW2 stuff 'cos of the influx of fakes is awful ! On these iffy medical kits, if Ebay don't do anything the only guy that can is a bidder. If you e-mail the bidder, alerting him to your suspicions, I don't think he can pull out of his bid (even if he believed you), but he can check the item when he gets it BEFORE he leaves feedback, then post negative feedback stating the item was not original. A few of those on this guys history and his market dries up. (Presume libel laws wouldn't apply when you are stating fact...) Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovetown Posted 13 March , 2005 Share Posted 13 March , 2005 Hi Chris I was unfortunate enough to purchase this particular dressing You are in good company, as I don't think any of the collectors I know escaped these when they first surfaced. I bought mine when the batch first turned up - you know, "they were found in a cupboard in a TA depot" routine - and, luckily, they were only £25. Unluckily, I bought five. The dealer did pay up when they were returned to him - although I had to bear the cost of the one I opened. Treating it as the price of tuition is the way I cope. Depressingly, they went back on sale after a few weeks - although the grapevine seems to have rendered them mostly unsaleable now. While more and more repro/ fake (take your pick) is appearing, it is no where near as contaminated as WWII German. But the time is coming, and one already treats every trench club and most painted Brodies or patched tunics with a high degree of scepticism. As I have posted before, the re-enactment community has to take some responsibility here - as it is often, at best, cavalier in its attitude to the stuff made for it. I would imagine that most, if not all, are collectors too and it seems quite contradictory for them to bemoan fakery or the activities of the unscrupulous while still insisting on the total lookalike authenticity of the items they buy or create. He spent most of his time arguing the authenticity of bits he was buying or selling. I wouldn't bother. If it's good enough for me, fine. If the other doesn't like it or conversely believes his items, let him get on with it. I learnt this when faced with a collector who was trying to sell me some items of '14 that were plainly repro. I even had examples of the very same pieces as temporary 'fillers'. Even when shown the exact same stuff, told where it came from - which was the same source as his - he just couldn't believe that it was wrong. He got very very narked at what he saw as a insult to his collecting intelligence. Fine, says I, let's not trouble his sensitive soul further. He has, I believe, still got it all as he's the only one in the world that knows it's right. And we're all fools. A friend of mine. Ambulance man perchance? pool information, & let unsuspecting innocents know This is a tough one as, while I agree with you, we also run the risk, unfortunately, of letting the faker know what he's done wrong. If I encounter anything dodgy on a stall or in a shop, I never let the dealer know why I don't want it - just that I don't. Never give dealers an inch. They're showing no quarter to us; and I think collectors who are keen to show off their knowledge to dealers (for whatever reason) are ultimately shooting themselves in the foot. One always reads collecting advice in magazines about 'getting close to a reliable dealer'. Sound enough as some are, some aren't - but over the years, I've seen nothing to suggest that the average dealer knows more than the collector. The auction houses are little better - and surround themselves with 'get out of jail' clauses on their transactions. Often, their know-all-ness makes them more vulnerable than those of us prepared to accept the gaps in our knowledge - and who are less wlling to take things at face value or can't afford to punt on items needing the benefit of the doubt. 1914/08 small packs? All dated WW1. So far, so good. Except they are all post-war conversions. Black webbing for rifle regiments or trench raiding? All inter-war Irish army more like. And yet most reputable dealers still perpetuate the lore and old wives they've picked up like the rest of us. And then most of them, even occasionally the better ones, rely on their money-back guarantees as an excuse not to examine some of their stuff that closely. I'm suddenly minded of a patched cuff rank I once bought. Even the most cursory examination made one question the patches, and it was screamingly obvious that all of the buttons were replacements or, at best, re-affixed. The whole thing smelt like a marriage. I returned it with a simple 'not for me'. After a while it went back on the market as complete, genuine yadda yadda. Strange to say that, while it was sold to me with a collar dog missing, it had acquired a pair in the interim. But what the hell, the guy was reputable, and it was guaranteed or your money-back. Er, I think that's it (for the time being). I know it sounds all very jaded, but I am a trusting, happy soul really who enjoys my hobby. As in everything in life, one just has to be prepared to make character calls about the person opposite - as well as the artefact itself. Happy hunting - it's a jungle out there! Regards, Grovetown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robbie Posted 13 March , 2005 Share Posted 13 March , 2005 How does one determine whether these are fakes or not? I can't. Robbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.B. Posted 13 March , 2005 Share Posted 13 March , 2005 I'm certain I've seen a John Bell field dressing with an April 1916 date for sale. This was being sold as a repro, not an original, but it does open up the possibility that other John Bell dressings as well as the now infamous February '16 ones are reproductions. I collect German items.....a minefield of dodgy camo helmets, "restored" tunics and pickelhaubes made up of repro and original parts.... You've got to love this hobby! All the best Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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