Information/opinion about the provenance of my SMLE MkIII please!

[nick8t4]

I will post a picture as soon as I am able but I was wondering if anyone could help me with the provenance of my SMLE MkIII. Clearly I'm not after detailed provenance i.e. Which tree did the walnut come from for the furniture... but I have a few questions as it has one or two unusual points.

Firstly, it is a No.1 MkIII rifle, not a MkIII* but it does not have volley sights, the old rounded cocking piece or a magazine cut off, although interestingly it does retain the slot for the magazine cut off so it was either constructed with one or had one originally which is now lost. Would I be right in thinking there must have been a cross over period between production of MkIII's and MkIII*'s where there would have been some interchanging of parts? Hence why mine has the slot for the cut off but no other features of a MkIII.

Secondly, the butt socket of my rifle is stamped with the cipher of George V but only the 19 of the date has been stamped. As far as I am aware the year has not worn away or been filed off, it looks as if it was never stamped. Why would this be? My thinking is that it is a replacement butt socket which was pulled out of stores at some indeterminate point.

Thirdly, could this be a post-war produced MkIII as I know after the Great War they reintroduced magazine cut offs etc?

Like I said, I will post a few pictures as soon as I am able.

Thank you,

Nick

[nick8t4]

Photo's as promised... Will post individually.

[4thGordons]

I will post a picture as soon as I am able but I was wondering if anyone could help me with the provenance of my SMLE MkIII. Clearly I'm not after detailed provenance i.e. Which tree did the walnut come from for the furniture... but I have a few questions as it has one or two unusual points.

Firstly, it is a No.1 MkIII rifle, not a MkIII* but it does not have volley sights, the old rounded cocking piece or a magazine cut off, although interestingly it does retain the slot for the magazine cut off so it was either constructed with one or had one originally which is now lost. Would I be right in thinking there must have been a cross over period between production of MkIII's and MkIII*'s where there would have been some interchanging of parts? Hence why mine has the slot for the cut off but no other features of a MkIII.

Secondly, the butt socket of my rifle is stamped with the cipher of George V but only the 19 of the date has been stamped. As far as I am aware the year has not worn away or been filed off, it looks as if it was never stamped. Why would this be? My thinking is that it is a replacement butt socket which was pulled out of stores at some indeterminate point.

Thirdly, could this be a post-war produced MkIII as I know after the Great War they reintroduced magazine cut offs etc?

Lie I said, I will post a few pictures as soon as I am able.

Thank you,

Nick

Nick

I will be interested to see the pictures.

You are certainly correct that there was a transition period where MkIII* rifles were assembled using MkIII receivers and MkIII* (high cut) wood - that is not at all unusual. Also rifles that went through FTR (Factory Thorough Refinish/Repair) at a later date also often had MkIII furniture fitted or later components such as the slab sided cocking piece fitted. So these sorts of anomalies are common - perhaps even usual, especially in rifles that had a long service history.

Does the serial number on the barrel (under the reat handguard) match the rifle? How about the bolt/reciever? Is the barrel dated (also found under the rear handguard usually on the left side)

Is there any sign of Indian ownership? (eg a transverse screw through the forend or a metal backstrap on the forend?) or possibly an FR stamp on the left side of the reciever under the safety?

The Indians were the only users who appear to have srubbed receivers of markings with some frequency in my experience.

There is one additional possibility - during WWII the production facility for SMLE No1s was bombed quite severely and production was "dispersed" to numerous smaller sites. These rifles are referred to as "Dispersal Rifles" and their receiver markings are a little different in that the "19" of the year was machine stamped under the cypher (along with a but the last two digits of the year were hand stamped - often not very neatly. I was wondering if yours might originate in this context?

Here is what a dispersal stamping looks like.

I will be interested in seeing the pictures.

Chris

Edit: I see the picture now. There is something rather odd about that stamping/font. Any chance of seeing the rifle as a whole?

I would also like to see the crown a bit more closely if that is possible.

Also - look on the left side of the reciever on the flat just inside of the safety - do you see three letters there? (NRF or SSA?) You will note that your rifle has no manufacturer on the stamp and if those letters are not present it should.

Is this a deactivated rifle or a live firer? (are you in the UK or...)

[nick8t4]

Photo II

There is also a large 'L' stamped on the stock just above the brass end plate.

[nick8t4]

Will get snapping. Unfortunately I only have a camera phone so the quality of the pictures might not be so good. The rifle is a deac.

[nick8t4]

It has the marking SSA next to the safety catch. Interestingly a G seems to have been stamped before the SSA as an addition.

Another view of the butt socket...

[nick8t4]

Final piece of information... On the butt socket below the pivot for the safety the number '34 is stamped and the word ENGLAND is engraved too. I am wondering if this is a civilian butt socket?

[4thGordons]

Final piece of information... On the butt socket below the pivot for the safety the number '34 is stamped and the word ENGLAND is engraved too. I am wondering if this is a civilian butt socket?

No as it carries the royal cypher. Commercial recievers would not usually carry this

It appears to be a "peddled scheme" rifle. (If you do a search on google you will find lots) but the quick and dirty is that SSA (Standard Small Arms) was set up to challenge the monopoly of production of Enfields - whether they actually produced complete rifles is subject of some speculation but they certainly produced receivers, trigger-guards and other components. Plagued by mismanagement and having labour problems - production never got underway properly and they were taken over an renamed NRF (National Rifle Factory) NRF marked recievers are less common than SSA. You can see the cypher/crown is more square and stylized on SSA/NRF recievers and also that the maker is not stamped on the wrist as it is with Enfield,BSA,LSA Co, Lithgow etc. SSA/NRF rifles are less common than the other makers of the period.

The finish on the metal your rifle looks to me as though it has been polished and refinished/reblued at some point.

The "England" stamp is usually understood as an export/import mark suggesting that at some point the rifle was sold commercially out of the UK.

The stamping style still looks a little odd - when I get home I will pull my pics of SSA recievers and have a look.

Chris

[303man]

The Large L on the Butt indicates Long Butt they were made S Short, N Normal & L Long.

[303man]

SSA (Standard Small Arms) Mark put on peddeled scheme rifles, every indication is this is a WW2 rifle not WW1

[nick8t4]

Thanks for all this, as an amateur to all this I am like a pig in clover with all this detail. As soon as I can dig out my digital camera I will send in some whole rifle shots. I wonder if the socket markings look odd because of 80-90 years furious polishing has worn them away?

SSA (Standard Small Arms) Mark put on peddeled scheme rifles, every indication is this is a WW2 rifle not WW1

What makes you think this? For my purposes (history teaching) it is not important but I am interested in the provenance personally.

Nick

[4thGordons]

Thanks for all this, as an amateur to all this I am like a pig in clover with all this detail. As soon as I can dig out my digital camera I will send in some whole rifle shots. I wonder if the socket markings look odd because of 80-90 years furious polishing has worn them away?

What makes you think this? For my purposes (history teaching) it is not important but I am interested in the provenance personally.

Nick

I am not sure I agree with .303 man on this (If I have understood him correctly). The PEDDLED SCHEME was WWI not WWII. SSA (part of the peddled scheme) stopped producing receivers prior to the end of WWI and for the last part of their existence were renamed NRF so the receiver at least dates from WWI. It is possible that the rifle was refinished/ refurbished in WWII it is even (remotely) conceivable that it was a rifle assembled on a WWI reciever during the darkest days of shortaged in '40/'41 perhaps as part of the DISPERSAL SCHEME... but I am not sure what indicates a WWII rifle to .303man.

It looks a bit like there is a 1944 date on the barrel but the stamping is odd.

It certainly looks to me as though it has been polished and reblued which would account for the missing date and the rather odd appearance of the markings.

Chris

[4thGordons]

The Large L on the Butt indicates Long Butt they were made S Short, N Normal & L Long.

and also B(antam)

Usually only S, L and B are marked, normal length is usually unmarked in my experience.

Chris

[Thunderbox]

Its a WW1 SSA peddled scheme rifle, although the markings do look a little strange.

It is probably one of the oddities where the receiver was built as a MkIII, but the rifle was assembled and marked as a MkIII* - this is because the "III" is off-centre to the left, as there would have been an asterisk or star to the right.

The rifle was later converted back to a MkIII with a cut-off - the star or asterisk (worn away) has been officially barred out (the horizontal line). This makes the rifle a very common "star barred out", which happened to the majority of MkIIIs that were converted to III* during the war, then restored in the inter-war years. The British Army's standard rifle specification during 1918 to 1940 was a "modified MkIII", with no volley sights but with the cut-off plate and a front piling swivel (new rifles had a narrow pattern piling swivel).

The rifle would have been restocked during WW1 at least once, and with walnut furniture lacking a volley sight plate inlet. Your rifle is now (badly) restocked with modern wood, including the butt from a No4 rifle (there is no safety catch cut-out in the butt). Someone has robbed it of the cut-off plate that it would have had when it left military service.

I hope that your rifle is a de-act, as the photos show that someone has ground off part of the bolt locking lugs!

[nick8t4]

Thank you all for your interesting replies. You're right about the stock, it isn't flush with the socket at all, however I was aware when I purchased it that the stock was not a period piece. The main purpose of my ownership of this rifle is to use it as a teaching tool for 11-14 year olds studying the Great War (I stress as a FULLY DEACTIVATED AND CERTIFIED artefact and not as a threat!). Artefacts are one of the most interesting things to teach with in my opinion and pupils love handling items such as this so it will be well used and loved for years to come.

With that in mind I would love to start a thread where people can contribute interesting anecdotes or facts about the SMLE I can throw into my lessons, can we continue it here or can someone direct me to the most appropriate place to start a thread?

Cheers,

Nick

[4thGordons]

With that in mind I would love to start a thread where people can contribute interesting anecdotes or facts about the SMLE I can throw into my lessons, can we continue it here or can someone direct me to the most appropriate place to start a thread?

Cheers,

Nick

I think it would be fine to carry on here.

What sorts of things were you interested in?

Perhaps these two short booklets might be of interest? The top one is about SMLEs the lower about pictures and uniforms. I am still working on correcting elements but if they are of any use feel free to use them.

There are some references at the end of the SMLE one thay you might be able to chase down.

Chris

PS I am not sure how the colour would match but I might be able to send you a period butt... let me check.

[TonyE]

A bit late to chime into this thread, but I too would like to know why 303man thinks SSA means a WW2 rifle. The only thing of WW2 is possibly the barrel which may have a 44 date.

SSA were given a contract for 57,000 rifles in November 1914 but by mid 1915 it was clear they were never going to produce any complete rifles. On 9th June 1915 the War Office decided to make SSA the centre of the new "Peddled Scheme", cancelled their contract for complete rifles and replaced it with one for action bodies, bolts, nose caps and trigger guards at a rate of 1,500 sets per week rising to 4,000 per week when new machinery was delivered.

The disadvantage of this was that it required components to be produced in equal numbers, so Col. Halse was appointed Director of Branch C.M.3. He modified the scheme in early 1916 and it became the Rifle Component Pool. Each component produced by all manufacturers in excess of the number required to complete rifles was placed in a "Pool" at RSAF Enfield together with the bodies etc. from SSA. This had the advantage of providing a source of supply not only for the assembly of rifles but also for the repair of salvaged weapons. A substantial stock of components built up at RSAF and LSA continually drew on this stock, as occassionally did BSA and RSAF. Thus technically the "Peddled Scheme" only operated from June 1915 until early 1916, thereafter being the "Rifle Component Pool".

As an indication of the scarcity of these SSA rifle (before they became the NRF), by the end of 1916 only 13,950 rifles had been assembled and delivered from the Rifle Component Pool.

Regards

TonyE

[nick8t4]

Mostly I think my pupils would be interested to know how the SMLE was used/received in theatre by the troops who used it. What is its effective range? What is the longest recorded 'kill' with standard sights? How many shots per minute could the average soldier achieve? (They know about the 'mad minute' but I doubt your average 1915 volunteer or 1917 conscript would be able to achieve the standard of the regulars and some territorials) Was it an effective weapon for the prevailing combat conditions? (A knobkierrie is on my list of wants for the future too, however it might have to be something I construct myself if the price isn't right)

Thank you for links by the way, very interesting.

Nick

[303man]

44 date on knoxform threw me, as a de-ac it is a bitzer and most have had a hard life in india. lack of good SMLE butts results in the dealers putting on cheaper No4 ones.

[nick8t4]

Bitzer?

[4thGordons]

Bitzer?

Suggesting that it has been assembled (unofficially) from "bits and pieces" (aka bitza)

I am not sure - how many of the serial numbers match? clearly it has replacement wood (common) but if the bolt, receiver and barrel are all numbered together (and the underside of the rear sight and the bayonet boss on the foresight protector) then this is less likely. If it is a complete mismatch then it might be an assembled rifle ("bitsa")

Chris

[trajan]

Mostly I think my pupils would be interested to know how the SMLE was used/received in theatre by the troops who used it.

You have stirred up a can of worms here matey! I hope that after learning the basics of the SMLE you will get a few more of your students interested in the ins and outs of research as can be learned from the saga of this particular SMLE!

Trajan

[nick8t4]

Mostly I think my pupils would be interested to know how the SMLE was used/received in theatre by the troops who used it. What is its effective range? What is the longest recorded 'kill' with standard sights? How many shots per minute could the average soldier achieve? (They know about the 'mad minute' but I doubt your average 1915 volunteer or 1917 conscript would be able to achieve the standard of the regulars and some territorials) Was it an effective weapon for the prevailing combat conditions? (A knobkierrie is on my list of wants for the future too, however it might have to be something I construct myself if the price isn't right

I have to say I think the rifle is the cut n' shut of the SMLE world! ;-) As its not destined for a museum but the mucky paws of teenagers it suits my purposes perfectly. Does anyone have any information regarding the questions I posed above?

TRAJAN, this is the reason I try to use artefacts in my teaching as much as I can, they tell a story that books can't. The rifle is a perfect example.

[Thunderbox]

Mostly I think my pupils would be interested to know how the SMLE was used/received in theatre by the troops who used it. What is its effective range? What is the longest recorded 'kill' with standard sights? How many shots per minute could the average soldier achieve? (They know about the 'mad minute' but I doubt your average 1915 volunteer or 1917 conscript would be able to achieve the standard of the regulars and some territorials) Was it an effective weapon for the prevailing combat conditions? (A knobkierrie is on my list of wants for the future too, however it might have to be something I construct myself if the price isn't right)

Thank you for links by the way, very interesting.

Nick

Use/ reception: Standard rifle issued to the c.5 million servicemen that Britain & Empire fielded. Rifle proved to be rugged, reliable and easy to clean. In the hundreds of WW1 personal accounts I have read, I've never seen a negative comment posted about the SMLE.

Effective range: Typical battle range in the trenches 0-200 yds. Soldiers trained to hit a man-sized target to about 600 yds. Rifle sighted to 1200 yards (sights) and 2600 yards (volley sights). Maximum killing range of the .303" bullet is about 3400 yards.

Longest "Kill": unknown - but accurate aimed fire is possible with this rifle out to 1000 yards.

Rate of fire: Soldiers of the pre-war army were expected to maintain a rate of 15 rounds per minute of accurate aimed fire (including reloading). Wartime soldiers probably a bit less. The SMLE can maintain twice the rate of fire as a Mauser (it was tested).

Effectiveness: Probably the best rifle for the conditions, and not superseded until lightweight automatic weapons were developed.