Cumberland & Westmoreland Regt

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Can anyone tell what this regt is called as I can't find it on the Site list of British Infantry Regts?

Cheers

S.B

[SteveE]

Steve

The border Regiment.

Formed in 1881 when the 34th (Cumberland) Regiment of Foot amalgamated with the 55th (Westmorland) Regiment of Foot.

Regards

Steve

edit: border Regiment should be with a capital B but for some strange reason every time I type B followed by an o the B turns lower case... border

[Kate Wills]

Steve,

Do you mean the Westmoreland and Cumberland Yeomanry?

If so, it was a territorial cavalry unit from the Lake District,part 53rd Division.

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Thank you the man is;

HAMPSON Armitage James 865 Pte 7 LHR 4R tos C Sqn? 5-15 (G) killed at Lone Pine NKG listed on Lone Pine Memorial Gallipoli

(British 1/4Bn (Cumberland & Westmoreland) The border Regt)

AKA Armistead James Hampson

Stockman 30 Sydney NSW NOK Wigton Cumberland UK

Enlisted 12-1-15 KIA 20-8-15

He only put Cumberland & Westmoreland Regt on his form, so Iam inclined to think its Infantry then Yeomanry.

Mate I noticed that no matter how many times I change (border to border) it goes back to lower case?

Cheers

S.B

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Steve

If 7 LHR refers to the 7th [Australian] Light Horse Regt, I think the Westmoreland & Cumberland Yeomanry is the more likely, and he switched the counties by mistake. 1/4th border is still a possibility but rather less likely.

I assume that he had served in one of these regiments before the war, then left and emigrated to Australia? Neither of them served at Gallipoli.

Ron

[Guest]

I notice that his NOK were in Wigton in Cumberland.

In 1914, the Westmorland and Cumberland Yeomanry had a drill station at Wigton (part of D Sqn)... the 4th (Cumberland and Westmorland) Bn The border Regt did not have a drill station at Wigton.. The nearest drill station that the 1/4th Bn border Regt had was at Carlisle, some 11 miles to the NE. (If you need a full list of the drill stations I can provide them). On this sliver of evidence, assuming he was a pre war Territorial in Cumberland, is seems more likely he was a Yeoman. As Ron Clifton points out, there is a more natural shift from the Yeomanry to the Light Horse than from a TF bn to the Light Horse.

Edit: The 5th (Cumberland) Bn the border Regt did have a drill station at Wigton, most likely shared with the Yeomanry.

I have seen the title "Westmorland and Cumberland" as well as "Cumberland and Westmorland" in different publications when referring to the 1/4th Bn border Regt. I think there is a possibility they were switched around my mistake.

MG

[stevem49]

Agree with Ron -The 1/4th (Cumberland and Westmorland) Battalion T.F.

None of the Westmorland and Cumberland Yeomanry are 1/4th.

Would have been with 1/4th prior to moving to Australia. As he was 31 years, he had plenty of time to do a bit in TF.

Steve

[Guest]

Just to clarify - what was on his form?...I understood that it was just "Cumberland and Westmorland" with no reference to the 1/4th or Yeomanry, and we are trying to work out which it is.....unless I am reading this wrongly...

If it says 1/4th, then it can only be the 1/4th (Cumberland and Westmorland) Bn of the border Regt, but if it is just "Cumberland and Westmorland" then the Yeomanry has to be an option, especially given his subsequent employment in the Light Horse and the fact that his parental home was in Wigton where a troop of D Sqn of the Cumberland and Westmorland Yeomanry was based.

MG

[SteveE]

Just to clarify - what was on his form?...I understood that it was just "Cumberland and Westmorland" with no reference to the 1/4th or Yeomanry, and we are trying to work out which it is.....unless I am reading this wrongly...

Have just looked at the forms on the Australian archives and the form just states "Territorials, Cumberland & Westmoreland", no mention of Regt., Yeo., 1/4th or any other designation so we can but speculate.

Steve

[stevenbecker]

Steve,

Your right I added the 1/4 and Regt when I thought he may have been that unit, sorry for the mix up.

Martin makes some good points and I am in two minds now but the man wrote Cumberland and Westmoreland not the other way around, so that leds me more to Infantry then Yeomanry?

I have others that served with the border Regt who also served in the ALH like;

BAIRD Douglas 706 Pte 04 LHR 2R Tos 7-15 (G) to 1 Div Cyc 3-16 to Cpl MG Sect/5Bn 4-16 WIA 31-5-16 L/thigh at Fleurbaix prom 2/Lt 10-17 to 2 MG Co 1 MG Bn 12-17 to QM BHQ 6-18 WIA 30-11-18 fractured ribbs accident in horse fall F&B (British The border Regt 2 years) AKA Douglas Gratton Baird or AKA alais William Douglas Sword Baird

FONTAINE Edward 1025 Pte 4Bn GCo remain Egypt to Cpl 2Co/1Bn ICC WIA 19-4-17 head at 2nd Gaza to Sgt 14 LHR (British border Regt 8 years )

McANDREWS Patrick 2580 Pte 12 LHR 22R disch 24-9-18 MU rheum (British 2Bn The border Regt 5 years)

Cheers

S.B

[Guest]

Although his parents lived in Wigton, it is possible that did not live with his parents as an adult. He might have lived in Carlisle and had joined the 1/4th Bn there. I think it unlikely that he was in the 1/4th Bn if he was still living in Wigton as the natural battlaion to join would have been the 1/5th Bn. It is worth checking the Census (recorded every 10 years in the UK). He would have been 16 during the 1901 census, however by 1911 he would have been 26 and possibly living apart from his family. Given the rurual nature of that part of the world and the poor economic conditions, he may well have been working in or nearer to Carlisle (the largest town in the area and a natural draw in hard economic times) where the 1/4th had its HQ and A and B Coys.

The 1891 Census has only 25 male Hampsons living in Cumberland. Two are named James. One, James E Hampson lives in Wigton and is of the exact age, and the other (plain James) lives in Frizington, Arlecdon but is 3 years younger than your man. I suspect James E is in fact James A, given the same family appear in the 1901 and 1911 Census (see below). This means James A Hampson had two elder brothers.

Mr Daniel L Hampson aged 42 - Draper's Assistant

Mrs Sarah J Hampson aged 38

Christopher Hampson aged 13

John H Hamspon aged 11

Mary Ethel Hampson aged 9

James E Hampson aged 6 - Almost certainly E is a typo.

Ellen E Hampson aged 4

Alice M Hampson aged 2

The 1901 Census has only 9 males surname Hampson living in Cumberland. There is only one James Hamspon and he is a James A Hampson. I think it almost a dead certainty that this is your man James Armitage Hampson. His family was living at 89 High Street, Victoria Place in 1901:

Mr Daniel L Hampson aged 52 - Draper, Shopkeeper.

Mrs Sarah J Hampson aged 48

Mary Ethel Hampson aged 18

James A Hampson aged 16 (apprentice Drapery) - Almost certainly James Armitage Hampson

Ellen E Hampson aged 14

Alice M Hampson aged 12

Annie T Hampson aged 8

Some details of the 1911 Census have been released. Further details (age, profession, first names etc) will be released and digitised over the next year;

Mr D L Hampson living at Victoria Place, Wigton. The house had 2 males and 5 females.... this is certainly his father (see above). No detail (yet) on the names of the other houshold members

Mr Hampson living at 19 High Street, Half Moon Lane, Wigton. The house had 5 males and 3 females. No further details are available.

Mr Hampson living at 30 High Street, Half Moon Lane, Wigton. The house had one male and one female

Mr Hampson living at 15 North Street, Carlisle. The house had one male and 3 females.

Mr Hampson living at 37 North Street, Carlisle. The house had 2 males and one female.

Mr Hampson living at 30 Cumberland Street. The house had one male.

Mr Hampson living at Stone Cottages, Alston. The house had one male. [Alston is 29 miles East of Carlisle]

These are all the Hampsons living in Cumberland in 1911 according to the Census. Given the size and structure of the Hampson household is the same in both Censuses (2 males and 5 females) it looks a distinct possibility that James Armitage Hampson was still living at home and probably still working the family drapery business. We will not know for sure until the Census detail for 1911 is released. If he was still living in Cumberland in 1911, it is highly likely that he was captured in this data. Both Carlisle and Wigton remain possibilities until we see the Census detail for 1911. When this is released, you will be able to establish exactly where he lived and have a better idea of which unit he probably joined. If he was living in Carlisle it increases the chances of being enlisted in the 1/4th Bn (the Bn HQ and A and B Coys were based at Strand Rd, Carlisle) but do remember that the Yeomanry also had D Sqn HQ in Carlisle. I think if he was still living in Wigton, the Yeomanry is your best bet as I can't see him joining the 1/4th if the 1/5th were based in Wigton.

On the basis of the above, I would bet he was still living in Wigton in 1911 and was probably already a Yeomanry Territorial. This is all speculation of course, but hopefully this will narrow the options when the Census detail is released.

I hope this helps.

Regards MG

P.S. I note that he was a Stockman before joining the Light Horse, which means he could probably ride before he joined the Australian Army. A small point and one that might increase the posssibility of being a pre war Yeoman. The day after he was killed, 3,000 Yeomen of the 2nd Mounted Division marched into battle across the Salt Lake at Suvla Bay (including the man in the avatar), less than a mile from Lone Pine.

PPS. You might try the Cumberland and Westmorland Yeomanry Museum details here as there is a very long shot that they might still have pre-war nominal rolls. He could have joined at age 18, or in 1903, so if they have any nominal rolls from 1903-1914 there is a chance he might appear on the list. Ditto the border Regt Museum. They are one of the most highly organised Regimental Associations and Museums I have come across in my research. click here for details. The man you need to speak to is Stuart Eastwood who is particularly helpful. He did a tremedous amount of research for the book "Glory is No Compensation" about the 1st and 6th Bns the border Regt at Gallipoli and would be interested in your man's Gallipoli connection.

It is worth noting that if he was Wigton based and joined an Infantry Bn before 1908, he might have initially joined the 3rd (Cumberland) Volunteer Battalion (formed in 1900 from the 1st (Cumberland) Volunteer Battalion) who had a Company based there. The 3rd Cumberland VB became the 5th (Cumberland) Bn The border Regt T.F. (F Company base at Wigton) when the Territorial Force was established in 1908 and all the Volunteer Battalions became numbered TF battalions, so it might be worth checking the nominal rolls of the 3rd (Cumberland ) VB as well... If he was Wigton based and then moved to Carlisle, that is one way of explaining why he might have joined (transferred?) to the 4th Bn as the 5th Bn had no representation in the town (and the 4th and 5th Bns had close ties). I think this is a possibility, but unlikely, however you might want to eliminate this possibility by looking at these unit's nominal rolls too if they still exist. . Regards MG

PPPS. I have border Regt and Yeomanry forbears, so this is of interest to me...

[stevenbecker]

Martin,

Amazing, thanks very much.

Cheers

S.B

[tullybrone]

Hi,

Just picked up on this one during a wet summers afternoon in the old county of Cumberland!

About 10 years ago I had several visits to National Archives at Kew, on behalf of Stuart Eastwood at The Border Regiment Museum, to record details from The Border Regiment Militia Records 1881-1908 held there. The files hold the attestation papers for members of the 3rd (Cumberland) + 4th (Westmorland) Militia Battalions.

I only partially completed the task, due to lack of Museum funding for travel expenses, but will have a look to see if there is a record on my database for Hampson.

As an aside the fact that a recruit lived in either Cumberland or Westmorland did not mean that he was automatically posted to the 3rd or 4th Militia Battalions respectively.

I have an ancestor who lived in west Cumberland and was posted to the 4th Battalion. He went to be called up to serve in South Africa with 1st East Lancashire Regiment.

Steve Y.

PS I understand that Find My Past are in the process of digitising all the Militia Records at Kew to add to the pre 1914 "regular" records that are on their site.

[tullybrone]

Hi,

Sorry but I can't see any Hampson in my database.

Steve Y.