Another MGC anomaly!

[HoraceG]

Hi Guys,

I have a number of MGC badges/shoulder titles, some with a Company Designation letter added however.....

This one came across my radar the other week which raised a few eyebrows. (Please note M.G.G.)

I wonder if anyone would have any thoughts on this? Possibly a manufacturing fault maybe?

Regards

HoraceG

[wainfleet]

Not a manufacturing fault - MGG is Machine Gun Guards, which is quite a rare title on its own. What the M underneath it means, I have no idea. Normally you'd expect it to be Motor, but here, who knows! If this is an original title in its present form then it's likely to be extremely rare.

[jay dubaya]

Horace, the MGG looks nothing more than an illusion, the M appears to be separate and much smaller, I've never seen nor heard of such a title as MGG/M

Jon

[SiegeGunner]

Horace, the MGG looks nothing more than an illusion, the M appears to be separate and much smaller, I've never seen nor heard of such a title as MGG/M

Not sure how to interpret your post, Jon. Are you suggesting that Wainfleet is mistaken?

[wainfleet]

On careful examination the M does indeed look as if it might be separate. If it's joined on, I would like to see the back of this title. I doubt that disparity of scale would be a big concern if there was a rush to get a particular title made up.

There is nothing illusory about MGG on its own. Jon, do you mean the whole thing?

[jay dubaya]

Horace states in his OP 'please note M.G.G' which implies (to me at least) that he thinks that the 2nd 'G' is larger, of course there is nothing unusual about a MGG title. I have seen photos of MGC/M in which the latter 'M' is separate but I can find no reference to the MGG being motorized and so I wonder if this title is an oversite,

Jon

[Bombadier]

I assumed the larger G was to draw attention to it in the post, just to make sure that a quick glance wouldn't read it as a C.

Nigel

[SiegeGunner]

I assumed the larger G was to draw attention to it in the post, just to make sure that a quick glance wouldn't read it as a C.

So did I, but I also now understand what Jon meant by the (larger) G being illusory.

[Trooper LG]

I don't know if this will help or just cause more confusion:

In the spring of '18, 1st and 2nd Life Guards and RHG were re-formed as 'Machine Gun Guards'.

They were respectively 1st, 2nd and 3rd Battalions Machine Gun Guards,

They were at times lorry mounted and were referred to as Motor Machine Gun Guards (MGG + M).

The shoulder titles were embroidered cloth at the top of the sleeve (see attached).

Could the MGG over M be some locally made title?

[FROGSMILE]

I don't know if this will help or just cause more confusion:

In the spring of '18, 1st and 2nd Life Guards and RHG were re-formed as 'Machine Gun Guards'.

They were respectively 1st, 2nd and 3rd Battalions Machine Gun Guards,

They were at times lorry mounted and were referred to as Motor Machine Gun Guards (MGG + M).

The shoulder titles were embroidered cloth at the top of the sleeve (see attached).

Could the MGG over M be some locally made title?

Although I have not heard of it before your theory sounds perfectly feasible to me and could be explained by a natural intent to emulate their brethren in the MGC. The year 1918 was such a hectic, helter skelter one with the Kaiserschlact, the British fall back towards the channel ports, the stand made by the ANZACs/Canadians/ British Reserves, followed by the counter offensive and Battle of Amiens and I think a lot of the minutiae of new units, badges and shoulder titles became blurred and was not always well recorded.

[Staffsyeoman]

I thought spring 1918 saw the establishment of the Guards Machine Gun Regiment aka

'6th (Machine Gun) Regiment of Foot Guards - in May. The Machine Gun Guards were a 1917 creation.

I have not seen anything documentary to establish a Motor Machine Guards (and I went through a set of documents for a putative history of the MGG/GMGR at the Guards Museum a few years back) - I'd be glad to see anything that does.

[Trooper LG]

The Guards Museum deals almost exclusively with the Regiments of Foot.

For Household Cavalry try; Household Cavalry Museum at Horseguards or Household Cavalry Archives, Combermere Barracks, Windsor.

Household Cavalry in the Great War.

MACHINE GUNS, 1918.

In the spring of 1918 the King was asked to give his blessing to another departure for his Household Cavalry. Not only was it increasingly clear that there was little prospect of further scope for horsed cavalry in the conflict, but the difficulty of finding adequate remounts had become acute, particularly for the six-feet-tall men of The Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards. Moreover the need for more reliable machine gun units had increased. What were required for that arm were men of superior intelligence and discipline who would convert easily to the role. It was both fair and logical that the Household Cavalry should fill it. This went to the roots of the constitution of the Household Cavalry,

“who are essentially liable to be employed wherever and however the Sovereign may please and may direct, with the implicit understanding that, when the specific duty is accomplished, they must be returned to their immediate service, mounted or dismounted, about the Sovereign's Person."

Early in April they went to the Vickers machine gun school, on the coast near Etaples, north of Abbeville (where, most tragically, on the night of May 19, they lost 43 killed and 82 wounded in an air raid). Each machine gun battalion comprised nearly 50 officers and 800 men with 64 Vickers. By the third week in May they were allotted to formations, the First Life Guards and Blues (the First and Third Battalions) going to the First Army front, east of Bethune, and the Second Life Guards (Second Battalion) to Four Corps, east of Albert. And they scored a universally fine reputation for their efficient creeping barrages in support of advancing infantry.

The First Life Guards and Blues, along with a battalion of the Army Cyclist Corps formed Lindsay's Force (later Brassey's) which, in cooperation with the Canadian Corps dashed up, in September, to seize the crossings of the Canal de L'Escat, while The Second Life Guards (under Lt Col Ron A F Stanley), covering the Forty-Sixth and Forty-Seventh Divisions, helped those formations to cross the Hindenburg Line and capture the Hindenburg Canal. The Blues Battalion was still in action early in November when they provided a barrage for the First and Thirty-Second Divisions as they stepped over the Canal de Sambre, days before Marshal Foch received the surrender of the newly formed German Government. Between 1914 and 1918, therefore, the Household Cavalry filled, for the Franco-Flanders front, a composite regiment, a cavalry brigade, a divisional squadron, two cyclist companies, a rifle battalion, three machine gun battalions and a siege battery.

I thought spring 1918 saw the establishment of the Guards Machine Gun Regiment aka

'6th (Machine Gun) Regiment of Foot Guards - in May. The Machine Gun Guards were a 1917 creation.

I have not seen anything documentary to establish a Motor Machine Guards (and I went through a set of documents for a putative history of the MGG/GMGR at the Guards Museum a few years back) - I'd be glad to see anything that does.

[FROGSMILE]

The Guards Museum deals almost exclusively with the Regiments of Foot.

For Household Cavalry try; Household Cavalry Museum at Horseguards or Household Cavalry Archives, Combermere Barracks, Windsor.

Household Cavalry in the Great War.

MACHINE GUNS, 1918.

In the spring of 1918 the King was asked to give his blessing to another departure for his Household Cavalry. Not only was it increasingly clear that there was little prospect of further scope for horsed cavalry in the conflict, but the difficulty of finding adequate remounts had become acute, particularly for the six-feet-tall men of The Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards. Moreover the need for more reliable machine gun units had increased. What were required for that arm were men of superior intelligence and discipline who would convert easily to the role. It was both fair and logical that the Household Cavalry should fill it. This went to the roots of the constitution of the Household Cavalry,

"who are essentially liable to be employed wherever and however the Sovereign may please and may direct, with the implicit understanding that, when the specific duty is accomplished, they must be returned to their immediate service, mounted or dismounted, about the Sovereign's Person."

Early in April they went to the Vickers machine gun school, on the coast near Etaples, north of Abbeville (where, most tragically, on the night of May 19, they lost 43 killed and 82 wounded in an air raid). Each machine gun battalion comprised nearly 50 officers and 800 men with 64 Vickers. By the third week in May they were allotted to formations, the First Life Guards and Blues (the First and Third Battalions) going to the First Army front, east of Bethune, and the Second Life Guards (Second Battalion) to Four Corps, east of Albert. And they scored a universally fine reputation for their efficient creeping barrages in support of advancing infantry.

The First Life Guards and Blues, along with a battalion of the Army Cyclist Corps formed Lindsay's Force (later Brassey's) which, in cooperation with the Canadian Corps dashed up, in September, to seize the crossings of the Canal de L'Escat, while The Second Life Guards (under Lt Col Ron A F Stanley), covering the Forty-Sixth and Forty-Seventh Divisions, helped those formations to cross the Hindenburg Line and capture the Hindenburg Canal. The Blues Battalion was still in action early in November when they provided a barrage for the First and Thirty-Second Divisions as they stepped over the Canal de Sambre, days before Marshal Foch received the surrender of the newly formed German Government. Between 1914 and 1918, therefore, the Household Cavalry filled, for the Franco-Flanders front, a composite regiment, a cavalry brigade, a divisional squadron, two cyclist companies, a rifle battalion, three machine gun battalions and a siege battery.

There is more on the GMGR within this thread: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=161341&st=0

and title.