What`s in a badge?

[PhilB]

When I look through military badges, I often feel "I wouldn`t like to be stuck with that one" or " That looks dashing". I always thought the 17th Lancers was the one most likely to inspire military virtue. I`ve never heard of WW1 men complaining or enthusing about their badges. Do members think that the badge design is a significant factor in soldier morale? Any favourites? Any no-noes? Phil B

[kingsman64]

Phil,

your quite right some do look positively inspirational "Death or Glory" the 17th Lancers badge you mention being a good example.

The British Army Regimental system bred total devotion to the regiment and of course a lot of cap badges have symbols in or on them that represent past glories, battle honours for example, or the Leicesters tiger for service in India, the Royal Scots Greys Eagle (having captured a French one at Waterloo).

Certain badges have provoked jealous reactions as well! Take the example of two of the kitchener's Pals Battalions it is recorded that one of the Liverpool Pals 17th 18th 19th 20th Battalions Kings Liverpool Regiment was returning to France after leave when a Garrison Sergeant Major of the Kings Regiment spoted the soldier wearing a standard curved "KINGS" shoulder title (as opposed to the large and awkward, rifle snagging "Liverpool City Batt. 1 The Kings" title) and his splendid hallmarked silver Pals cap badge, which was the Stanley Family Crest (paid for by Lord Derby his personal gift to the original volunteers) the badge was an eagle standing over a child in a Moses basket with the motto "Sans Changer" = constant or without change. the GSM shouted "Oi you, if you are in the King's Liverpool's get that duck of yer head and get a 'orse up their where it belongs". A reference to the white horse of hanover worn by several of the other Liverpool Battalions.

Another Pals battalion the 11th Border regiment had a superb hallmarked silver cap badge presented to them by their benefactor Lord Lonsdale (obviously not wanting to be out done by Lord Derby!) this badge a Dragon mounted on a scroll 11th Lonsdale Battalion the border regiment (The Dragon commemorating the regulars service in the China wars) became a trophy to other battalions involved in a massive punch up with the Cumbrian men before they even left for France! As a result I have seen crisp examples of this very rare badge change hands for £500!

No matter how boring the badge looks you wont get an old sweat to run down his regiments insignia!

Regards

Paul.

[PhilB]

Kingsman - I wonder if the Liverpools with the Eagle and Child badge were pleased to have it, or would they have preferred the "real" Kings badge. Did it make them feel special or like one of Derby`s retainers? Was it egotistical of Derby to put his crest on them or a generous act of sharing? Did any other raiser of a battalion use his crest rather than the badge of the parent regiment? Phil B

[kingsman64]

As a Liverpool lad myself, now exiled to rural Northamptonshire! (and loving it to be honest) I can only speak of my knowledge of the Liverpool Pals and their revered status in Liverpool they are almost part of local folklore.

Lord derby was of course credited with the idea of workmates, pals, chums whatever you wish to call them joining up together and crucially, serving together.

This of course had potentially horrendous implications in the coming months and years, I refer of course to the little town of Accrington in Lancashire and the fate of the Accrington Pals but that, as they say, is another story.

The pals where immensley proud of answering the call from Lord Derby and the personal presentation of the badges at Knowsley Hall by the Stanley family was viewed as a fantastic send off by the lads.

Many Liverpool Pals badges are found brooched for wear by mums and wives post war and probably in some cases during the war. The soldier having replaced his badge with the same one but in Brass, rather than lose the prized silver issue.

You even find Liverpool Pals badges with the soldiers name or service number either crudely or professionaly engraved on the rear, hardly indicitive of people who felt "badged" or "retained". The lads proudly called themselves "Derby men" again another indication of the way they felt.

Let us not forget the recruitment night held in Liverpool was oversubscribed and I think was the fastest ever recruitment of a Brigade (4 Battalions) in British Army History.

I personally do not know of any other Regiment that adopted the personal crest of its benefactor, I am sure the Forum will correct me if I am wrong. Cardiff Pals wore the municipal coat of arms, Birmingham Pals the Royal Warwickshire regiment cap badge with an additional scroll at the bottom 1st Birmingham Battalion. Others only had a different shoulder title Leeds Pals, Sheffield Pals.

All contemporary accounts point to the Pals feeling a cut above the rest, proud of their badge as any regiment with a 300 year history was.

They where young fresh volunteers who would stand shoulder to shoulder with their work mates. After all it was all going to be over by Christmas!

Instead they fell shoulder to shoulder in their thousands many on the 1st July 1916 in their Baptism of fire.

"We will rember them".

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

The MGC crossed Vickers Machine Guns - says it all really.

Ian

[Guest DNH]

Shortly after the war the Manchester regiment changed its badge from the City's Coat of Arms to the Fleur de Lys.

The letter from OC 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment requesting the change of badge makes two points regarding the change:

1) it (the fleur de lys) had been used almost as a battle honour from the days of the 63rd Regt of Foot's participation in Caribbean operations against the French, both in the 7 Years' War and Napoleonic Wars. It had therefore long been used, and was the focus of much pride, dating from the earliest battle honours of the Regiment

2) the City Coat of Arms was worn by every municipal worker in Manchester, and is therefore non-military in nature and not sufficiently inspirational of a martial spirit.

The City Council backed the change, and that the connection with the City would be retained through the name of the Regiment, the shoulder titles worn and officers' buttons.

During the war, Manchester's Pals Battalions had at one stage been issued with Kitchener blue uniforms, and with the City Coat of Arms badges on the cap they had been unkindly referred to as tram drivers' battalions! How much this had to do with the change later is anybody's guess!

Cheers

DNH

[PhilB]

Interesting story of the Manchesters` badge, DNH. I spent a year in BAOR near the Manchesters, so saw a lot of the fleur de lys. I must say it didn`t really appeal to me - though an improvement on the tramdriver`s badge!

I was beginning to think that effective badges had to have some macho appeal in them, but then I thought of the Welsh Guards badge. I`m not Welsh (though I have Welsh speaking grandchildren) but I would find the leek, with its historical associations, quite inspiring. Phil B