Bayonet / scabbard markings - help please

[Guest Turner T]

I am trying to understand the markings on a bayonet we have had in our family for as long as I can remember. I have trawled the internet and have had some success but much still remains a mystery. Unfortunately the marks are very faint and do not show up on photos very well. I've listed the marks below and have added my own comments in brackets, if someone could fill in the blanks and confirm my comments that would be great.

Bayonet

1913 (pattern 1913) - above - 5 16 (manufactured May 1916) - above - Remington (by Remington!)

on the other side

arrow pointing up (inspection mark) - above - crown - above - B4 - above - A

below this

crown (different to crown above, more intricate) - above - V - above - A

Scabbard

under the frog stud on the locket - RL (small letters, L smaller than R)

on the main part of the scabbard on the right hand side - W - directly above - J in a diamond (is this a manufacturer's mark? not Remingtons?)

on the left hand side, very faint - arrow pointing up (inspection mark) - above - crown (or could be C 7) - above - 51 - above - L

about half inch below this is the number 232.

Does it make any sense that the scabbard marks are different to the bayonet's? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[4thGordons]

It soulds like you have comprehensively described the markings on a standard British Pattern 13 Bayonet (for the Pattern 14 (No3 MkI*)rifle.

As far as I can tell your markings are all standard and you have interpreted them correctly.

Regarding the scabbard: Is it possible that the RL is actually a weakly stamped RE (ie Remington)?

While I believe bayonets were originally supplied in scabbards matched to them, there were numerous sub-contractors supplying leather and components I have a list of some of these somewhere and will have a look to see if I can track yours down.

In addition there were repair and refurbishment programs (continuing up through WWII) and in service no one was going to pay any attention whatsoever to "matching" the manufacturer of bayonet and scabbard, so the pairing you have is absolutely normal. The scabbard for the P13 bayonet and that for the P1907 bayonet are identical and interchangeable.

Hope that helps, I'll lave a look for the manufacturer symbol you mention

Chris

Edit:

Quick look at my notes suggests W might indicate "Waxed" (an alternate finish on the leather) and the J in a diamond may indecate JEWELL as the supplier of the leather.... can't swear to either of these though.

Edited 13 August , 2011 by 4thGordons

[trajan]

Quick look at my notes suggests W might indicate "Waxed" (an alternate finish on the leather) and the J in a diamond may indecate JEWELL as the supplier of the leather.... can't swear to either of these though.

About a month ago I saw something like this J mark in an old GWF thread and yes it was a makers mark - try searching 'P1907 scabbards'.

Trajan

EDIT: oh, yes, Skennerton 'British and commonwealth Bayonets' does say (p.202) that W = 'waxed' and is a 1923 or later refurbishment.

[shippingsteel]

About a month ago I saw something like this J mark in an old GWF thread and yes it was a makers mark - try searching 'P1907 scabbards'.

Here is a LINK to that thread which has a picture of that J marking. It is the later period symbol for Jewell Belting, the maker of leathers for US scabbards.

Cheers, S>S

[Guest Turner T]

Thanks guys, this is really interesting stuff.

On a second look the L of RL could well be an incomplete RE - bit disappointed I didn't think of that myself!!