BRODIE BATCH NUMBERS

[Guest]

Greetings, this is my first posting on this board.

I may be able to add a little about the heat numbers on the helmets.  I used to be in management for one of the firms that had made the helmets for the US during WWI. At one point I had the original production tooling for these helmets stored right out side my office and even tried to purchase them (they were destroyed in 1977). 

I'm going to assume that the marking of the heat number followed the same procedure for the helmets as it did on other critical stampings. The number identified the batch of blanks that were treated an not the coil from which they were punched. Records associated with the number would identify the coil and mill that the blank came from.

To produce a helmet, the steel would have to be treated, before being made into the bowl shape. Otherwise the crown of the helmet would be too thin or may even split during the stamping.

As to the numbers being in order of production, that depended on the customer's specs. Sometimes they would be and other times the would be coded to provide additional info. In both cases you could determine the order of production from the stamping.  Looking at the numbers shown here it would appear to me to be a straight run order. 

Hope this may be of interest and some value.

 

By the way, the film showing the helmets being made was the company I worked for. Those scenes were shot of the first floor of the "A" building and the shipping dock was directly underneath (shipped on the Pennsylvania Rail Road).

[aef1917]

For US WWI helmets, the heat number was stenciled in paint on the blank.  That number was linked to what the Ordnance Department called a "symbol", which was the code stamped on the brim.

 

The only film I've ever seen is the sequence showing painting and assembling the helmets at Ford.  Is there another one showing the actual stamping process?

[Guest]

On November 29, 2015 at 13:33, Paddy 60th said:

Thanks for the links Kath.

On the Treasure Bunker site there is a link to a brilliant 5 minute video of helmets being made in a USA factory in Jan 1918. A must watch !

Roger

http://www.treasurebunker.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1514

[JMB1943]

Opening the link given below 

http://www.treasurebunker.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1514

brings up the listing shown of British steel manufacturers for the Brodie.

FKS is given as one of the alternative stampings for Thomas Firth & Sons.

 

Regards, 

JMB

 

leon21

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Posted March 24, 2014

Here's a list of known makers of British WW1/WW2 helmets and Liner Markings.

 

British Steel Suppliers of WW1 British Helmets.

 

V = Vickers Ltd of Sheffield.......................1916 - 1917.

MS= Miris Steel Co Ltd of London..............1916 - 1917.

FS= T.Firth & Sons Ltd of Sheffield............1916 - 1918. (  also used "F" and "FKS" marks )..

O = S. Osborne & Co Ltd of Sheffield........1916 - 1918.

A = Edgar Allen & Co Ltd of Sheffield ......1916 - 1918.

M&S = J & J Maxfield & Sons Ltd Sheffield.1916 - 1918. ( Possibly also used "MLS" marks ).

B = Bury's & Co Ltd of Sheffield................1916 - 1918.

BS= W.Beardmore & Co Ltd of Glasgow....1916 - 1919.

HS= Hadfield Ltd of Sheffield......................1916 - 1919.

[JMB1943]

On 30/11/2015 at 06:19, Grovetown said:

What was produced after FS 99 or FS 999 or FS 9999?

I think you're tackling it from too narrow a perspective.

Everything about that shell is later - the body (really early ones have a corrugated effect), chinstrap and chinstrap bales; and paintwork.

Think: what's the highest number you've ever seen? 687? While the steel makers would have produced shells (7,500,000) over 1000s of heats, I'll wager you can't show a heat number over 999.

 

Cheers,

GT.

 

Grovetown,

 

There is a little formula that enables a total of numbered products (N) to be ESTIMATED, from the maximum value observed (m) and the number of samples (k) that are observed,

N = m(1 + 1/k) - 1.

Searching the GWF threads and current eBay offerings today gave k = 21, m = 687 for Hadfields.

Then, N ~ 719 heat "batches" were produced by Hadfields. 

[A highest observed heat number of m = ~860 would be needed to give N ~ 900.]

 

I cannot find a value for the number of shells produced by Hadfields (Hads.), but Hads. accounts for 21 of the 46 heat numbers that resulted from my trawl  today.

If the 7.5 million shells quoted above is purely UK production, then production by Hads. may be estimated as 21/46 x 7.5 million = 3.424 million shells.

At a weight of about 26 oz each, this requires about 2,484 tons of steel.*

The average weight of steel produced per heat number is then 2,484/719 = 3.45 tons; is this is a reasonable number for a blast furnace to produce per firing?

 

Regards,

JMB

edit:*This is only helmet weight, and does not account for the steel lost by trimming after pressing of the original 

plate that was, I believe, 14.5 inches square.

 

 

Edited 29 December , 2018 by JMB1943
Add info

[JMB1943]

I have returned to this older thread because of the posting today by a new member asking for info regarding a newly-purchased British steel helmet (BS 16 "Heat").

After recording more heat batches for many of the makers, the numbers below appear:-

Maker            K        Smax (m)        N ~                          Lowest

Beardmore     12          97                104                                10         

Dixon                9         97                 107                                  5

Firth (FS)         56        288                 298                                 1

Firth (FKS)       14        110                 117                                 1

Hadfields        66         702                712                                 7

Hutton/Vickers  14       670               717                                 8

LS/Myrrys        4              23                 28                                4

MLS                 9              55                 61                                7

Round/Allen    3             123              168                                5

Bury's/DO        3              83               110                              16

                                                TOTAL ~ 2422

Hadfields (the world's largest producer of steel) made 712 of  the ~2422 heats, i.e. 29.5%.

UK made ~ 6 x 10e6 helmets (Wiki), so about (6 x 10e6)/2422 = ~2477 helmets per heat. So about 1 month of heats would equip 60,000 men, i.e. 3 Divns.

Each helmet was pressed from a 14.5 x 14.5 x 0.036 inch plate (Bashford Dean), that weighed 34.5 oz.

1,000 plates weigh 0.96 long tons (long ton = 2240 lb).

We can estimate that Hadfields produced ~29.5% of  the 6 x 10e6 helmets, i.e. about 1.77 x 10e6, from about 1700 long tons of steel., which is about 2.4 long tons per heat.

This was a trivial amount for a blast furnace to produce per heat.

  On 30/11/2015 at 06:19, Grovetown said:

What was produced after FS 99 or FS 999 or FS 9999? Think: what's the highest number you've ever seen? 687? While the steel makers would have produced shells (7,500,000) over 1000s of heats, I'll wager you can't show a heat number over 999.

Cheers,GT.

Grovetown,

You are absolutely correct about the relatively low heat numbers, and god knows I have looked.

As shown above, the highest heat number that I have recorded is 702.

My feeling is that heat 799, let alone 999, was not reached because the helmets could be turned out much faster (about 1 month for 3 divisions) than men could be enlisted, trained and sent to the Front (about 3 months). And then Germany sued for peace.

If Germany had resisted for another 12 months or so, and we had been able to field another 500,000 men; this would have required another ~200 heats and we might then expect Hadfields and Hutton/Vickers to reach about 800 heats each.

Regards,

JMB

EDIT: Have added the lowest heat number that I have so far recorded.

 

 

 

Edited 1 November , 2021 by JMB1943
Added more information

[Grovetown]

Crikey: pretty forensic stuff.

If you recall, the OP was wondering if you could date a helmet by heat number - e.g was BS28 produced before BS288 and, if so, when?

Did we get anywhere with that?

My feeling is that one can't date helmets this way, as it would required heats to be used consecutively while heats would be produced continuously*, whereas I think you'd draw them from stores/ racks as convenient.

The clincher either way would be an obvioulsy later helmet (and one not refurbished) - by liner and doughnut - having a lower heat number than an obviously earlier one (raw edge, narrow bales, early liner).

Sadly, I think (my) life too short to pursue that in detail!

Cheers,

GT.

*We may assume that not all heats would go to helmet manufacture, so the numbers won't be in a properly consecutive series anyway.

[JMB1943]

5 hours ago, Grovetown said:

Crikey: pretty forensic stuff.

I'm glad that you liked it!!!

Let's do some more...............

If you recall, the OP was wondering if you could date a helmet by heat number - e.g was BS28 produced before BS288 and, if so, when?

I think that any reasonable person would agree that BS28 was produced before BS228, and that only an irrational system would allow random numbers to be applied to sequential lots.

Examples of serially numbered products these days: drug lots; paint ; packaged food & drink etc. During the GW, ANY materiel contracted by ANY Govt , i.e. rifles; binoculars; travelling kitchens etc., was numbered sequentially.

 e.g was BS28 produced before BS288 and, if so, when?

Let's use the Hadfields data instead, because there is much more of it, and it is therefore the most reliable: lowest heat obsvd. is 7; highest heat obsvd. is 702; highest ESTIMATED heat is 712

Robert Hadfield invented helmet steel (Hadalloy/mangalloy; steel with ~11 - 15% Mn) in 1882, and so had 30 yrs experience working it by 1915.

According to the post by Leon21 (above), Hadfields made helmets from 1916 to 1919. I doubt that many, if any, were made in 1919, due to the cash-strapped Govt having to cancel contracts.

So, let us assume, for convenience, a start date of Jun 1, 1916; this gives 130 weeks until Dec 31, 1918 (for most Makers, not just Hadfields).

The limiting factor in the speed of production of Hadalloy was very likely the supply of manganese (ore), and I have shown above that helmet production was much faster than production of trained soldiers.

My estimate is that, ON AVERAGE, Hadfields ran a helmet heat on 6 days per week, allowing for 1 day of maintenance or other downtime. This allows for 780 heats in the time-span.

712 Heats in 780 days corresponds to 10 heats every 11 days.

[Given Hadfields scale of steel production and experience with Hadalloy, I would not be at all surprised if they were the very first maker of steel helmets, possibly in March-April 1916].

I would guesstimate that HS 7 was possibly made in the week beginning June 8, 1916, while HS 702 was possibly made in the week beginning when??? 8 Days (see below) back from Dec. 31 gets to about Dec. 23, 1918.

702 /10 = 70.2 heats x 11 days = 772 days [note the closeness of 772 to 780 (8 days), and I promise that I did NOT set this up]. 

My conclusion is that it is very possible to estimate when a particular heat of steel was produced, and thereby infer when a particular helmet was made.

Regards,

JMB

[Edit: The difference between the highest observed heat (702) and estimated highest heat (712) is 10 heats; this would take us into early January, 1919].